Pentecostalism In The Catholic Church

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' date='26 May 2010 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1274909021' post='2118467']
okay - i am trying to "catch up" via the other thread you referenced. sorry - i'll go back to my little corner now.

proceed.
[/quote]
No worries. Your contribution to the discussion is appreciated. God bless.

[Marie-Therese]

I am a former Southern Baptist/Pentacostal. I think that if a person feels led to express these charismatic type experiences in their personal prayer and praise, then that is fine. To each his own. In the context of the Mass, it has no place.

The Mass is NOT an individual worship experience, no matter what people think about it. It is the eternal sacrifice of Calvary presented to the Father by His Bride, the Holy Church. That is the difference between our Catholic faith and the typical Protestant mentality. Protestantism finds many people church-hopping because they "aren't getting fed" or "don't get anything out of worship." These are just code words for people who mean they aren't getting the emotional satisfaction out of their particular group. The Mass is not about emotion, although emotional connection to the Mass is very valid and a beautiful thing. Worship is NOT about emotion. It's about WORSHIP. The most boring homily in the most homely church is still, and will always be, about pleasing God and not the congregants.

When I am at home, listening to some great worship music, I like to dance and raise my hands, because I feel joyous. I will not do that in Mass.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='26 May 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1274909725' post='2118473']
I am a former Southern Baptist/Pentacostal. I think that if a person feels led to express these charismatic type experiences in their personal prayer and praise, then that is fine. To each his own. In the context of the Mass, it has no place.
[/quote]
I agree. A person's private devotions are his own business.

[Ephrem Augustine]

And I agree, the wording of the first question was so confusing that I didn't vote.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='26 May 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1274909821' post='2118475']
And I agree, the wording of the first question was so confusing that I didn't vote.
[/quote]
I am sorry that you were unable to vote. Alas you can file your complaint with Fr. Walsh, one of the sources that TPO quoted.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 May 2010 - 04:38 PM' timestamp='1274909915' post='2118477']
I am sorry that you were unable to vote. Alas you can file your complaint with Fr. Walsh, one of the sources that TPO quoted.
[/quote]
Is Fr. Walsh canon or something?
He is the only person I have heard call the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Pentecostalism.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='26 May 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1274910259' post='2118484']
Is Fr. Walsh canon or something?
He is the only person I have heard call the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Pentecostalism.
[/quote]
He was quoted by TPO, but evidently Fr. Walsh is in error. Clearly no one should quote him as a source in the future on this issue.

It is a fact that this "spiritualist" movement antedates its entrance into the Catholic Church by more than 60 years. It began as a Protestant movement, and as a former Protestant I think it is dangerous because it is founded upon theological presuppositions that in the final analysis are anti-sacramental and anti-Catholic. Clearly some people do not share my concerns, while others (e.g., CatherineM) do share them. One other thing is clear, the movement has divided the Catholic Church, and that cannot be a good thing.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Apotheoun

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='26 May 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1274909725' post='2118473']
I am a former Southern Baptist/Pentacostal. I think that if a person feels led to express these charismatic type experiences in their personal prayer and praise, then that is fine. To each his own. In the context of the Mass, it has no place.

The Mass is NOT an individual worship experience, no matter what people think about it. It is the eternal sacrifice of Calvary presented to the Father by His Bride, the Holy Church. That is the difference between our Catholic faith and the typical Protestant mentality. Protestantism finds many people church-hopping because they "aren't getting fed" or "don't get anything out of worship." These are just code words for people who mean they aren't getting the emotional satisfaction out of their particular group. The Mass is not about emotion, although emotional connection to the Mass is very valid and a beautiful thing. Worship is NOT about emotion. It's about WORSHIP. The most boring homily in the most homely church is still, and will always be, about pleasing God and not the congregants.

When I am at home, listening to some great worship music, I like to dance and raise my hands, because I feel joyous. I will not do that in Mass.
[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly! I too beleive that the Charismatic gifts should not be enacted during the Holy Mass, but if the church were to allow it, then I would have to submit my personal beleifs to that of the Church's beleif.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 May 2010 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1274910559' post='2118490']
He was quoted by TPO, but evidently Fr. Walsh is in error. Clearly no one should quote him as a source in the future on this issue.

It is a fact that this "spiritualist" movement antedates its entrance into the Catholic Church by more than 60 years. It began as a Protestant movement, and as a former Protestant I think it is dangerous because it is founded upon theological presuppositions that in the final analysis are anti-sacramental and anti-Catholic. Clearly some people do not share my concerns, while others (e.g., CatherineM) do share them. One other thing is clear, the movement has divided the Catholic Church, and that cannot be a good thing.
[/quote]

Oh, and I take it the Norvus Ordo Missae has divided the Church aswell. You cant blame the division on the movement, the blame is on the people. Same with the division after Vatican II, you cant blame it on the council it must be blamed on the people who took the Council's teachings the wrong way.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 May 2010 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1274910559' post='2118490']
He was quoted by TPO, but evidently Fr. Walsh is in error. Clearly no one should quote him as a source in the future on this issue.

It is a fact that this "spiritualist" movement antedates its entrance into the Catholic Church by more than 60 years. It began as a Protestant movement, and as a former Protestant I think it is dangerous because it is founded upon theological presuppositions that in the final analysis are anti-sacramental and anti-Catholic. Clearly some people do not share my concerns, while others (e.g., CatherineM) do share them. One other thing is clear, the movement has divided the Catholic Church, and that cannot be a good thing.
[/quote]
well you should read my litany of criticisms in the other thread, and I was someone who was involved.
I think when I did my own research into the origins of it all, and found the same "anti-sacramental" and "anti-catholic" origins it shocked me enough to go deeper into my faith, and the legit traditions.
however I have seen good come from it, (even in me) and IDK, maybe God blesses people despite our human folly.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='26 May 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1274910628' post='2118493']
I agree wholeheartedly! I too beleive that the Charismatic gifts should not be enacted during the Holy Mass, but if the church were to allow it, then I would have to submit my personal beleifs to that of the Church's beleif.
[/quote]

Before my parish was even a parish (it was a Catholic religious community that has a priest appointed by the bishop of the diocese of Lansing), our bishops allowed prayer in tongues to be used for a brief 1-2 minute period after the gloria and during communion time.

[Apotheoun]

The liturgy is not something established by legal enactments issued by the bishops; instead, it is the primary means for passing on the Apostolic paradosis. It is the living tradition expressed in worship. I sense a grave danger in the modern Western approach to the liturgy, which tries to reduce it to canonical enactments that can be changed on a whim.

[iheartjp2]

I posted this in the other thread but it go no attention (hm, I wonder why... ). I'm posting it here because I think it makes a huge difference in how people are approaching the legitimacy of the Charismatic Renewal. I completely forgot that Fr. Cantalamessa, the speaker for the Papal household of Venerable John Paul II and Benedict XVI, is a charismatic.

Here's what I posted:

[quote]To add to what fides said about Fr. Cantalamessa, he spoke at the Amazing Grace Conference in Detroit in 2007. I can't believe I forgot about this! I wasn't in attendance, but being from Ann Arbor, home of Christ the King Parish, historically charismatic, many people I know went. For more about it, check [url="http://archdioceseofdetroit.org/AODOnline/News+++Publications+2203/Michigan+Catholic+News+12203/2007+The+Michigan+Catholic+News+14936/070202+MCN+-+Fr.+Cantalamessa+to+speak+at+Cobo+Center.htm"]this[/url] out. The Charismatic Renewal may not be approved officially by the Church, but the Holy Father allowed his spokesperson, a charismatic, to be the keynote speaker at the conference. I think that means a lot.[/quote]

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[size="4"]Pope Benedict spoke about the
Charismatic Renewal in a book
written with the journalist Vittorio
Messori (who also wrote a book
with Pope John Paul II): “Ratzinger
Report” (1985). Here are two
passages from that book:[/size]

“What sounds [b]full of hope[/b]
throughout the universal church -
and this even in the midst of the
crisis that the Church is going
through in the Western world - is
the upsurge of new movements that
no one has planned and no one
called into being, but that simply
emerge of their own accord from
the inner vitality of the faith. What
is becoming apparent in them -
albeit very faintly - is something
very similar to [b]a pentecostal hour
in the Church.[/b] I am thinking for
instance of the [b]Charismatic Renewal
movement[/b], the Cursillo movement,
the Focolarini, Communion and
Liberation, and so on... I find it
marvelous that [color="#FF0000"]the Spirit is once
more stronger than our programs
and brings himself into play in an
altogether different way than we
had imagined.... [/color]It grows in silence.
Our task - the task of the officeholders
in the Church and of
theologians - is to[color="#FF0000"] keep the door
open to them, to prepare room for
them...”[/color] (pp. 43-44).
“The period following the
Council scarcely seemed to live up
to the hopes of John XXIII, who
looked for a [color="#FF0000"]‘"new Pentecost"’[/color]. But
[color="#FF0000"]his prayer did not go unheard[/color]. In
the heart of a world desiccated by
rationalistic scepticism a new
experience of the Holy Spirit has
come about, amounting to a
worldwide renewal movement.
What the New Testament describes,
with reference to the [color="#FF0000"]charisms[/color], as
[color="#FF0000"]visible signs [/color]of the coming of the
Spirit is [color="#008000"]no longer merely ancient,
past history - this history is
becoming a burning reality today.”([/color]p.151).

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Sounds like Our beloved Pope Benedict XVI not only approves of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal but is really ecxited about it!