Tongues- Gift Of The Holy Spirit?

[Slappo]

One last thing I wanted to say too about all the people saying the Church has recognized or approved the movement or whatever.


The Church approved the 1970 English translation of the missal, but almost no one here is going to use that as support for keeping our current translation...


I almost want to just say, "So what if the Church approved it?" Many things have been approved, not all of them have been good for the Church.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Slappo' date='26 May 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1274887150' post='2118141']
One last thing I wanted to say too about all the people saying the Church has recognized or approved the movement or whatever.


The Church approved the 1970 English translation of the missal, but almost no one here is going to use that as support for keeping our current translation...


I almost want to just say, "So what if the Church approved it?" Many things have been approved, not all of them have been good for the Church.
[/quote]

I could agree with you in theory, but this makes me think of a sort of relativism, the same impression that I see here as in other threads on Debate Table: it seems that many things are only matters of opinions, it seems that "yes: some things have been approved but are not good; others have been approved and they are really good" etc... but who finally says which things have been approved and are good or not?
why can't we have simply a "yes" or "no", or a
"the Church says this and this...and stop, there are no more discussions"?

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='organwerke' date='26 May 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1274887690' post='2118148']
I could agree with you in theory, but this makes me think of a sort of relativism, the same impression that I see here as in other threads on Debate Table: it seems that many things are only matters of opinions, it seems that "yes: some things have been approved but are not good; others have been approved and they are really good" etc... but who finally says which things have been approved and are good or not?
why can't we have simply a "yes" or "no", or a
"the Church says this and this...and stop, there are no more discussions"?
[/quote]
...because some here feel their opinions weigh heavier than bishops and even the Pope's opinions...

[KnightofChrist]

The people of the movement have been "approved" but not their actions, not glossolalia or other such nonsense. Many of the 'gifts' are replacements of some sort of actual sacraments. Such as the laying on of hands, and Baptism of the Spirit.

[organwerke]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='26 May 2010 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1274887980' post='2118155']
The people of the movement have been "approved" but not their actions, not glossolalia or other such nonsense. Many of the 'gifts' are replacements of some sort of actual sacraments. Such as the laying on of hands, and Baptism of the Spirit.
[/quote]

Yes, in fact I too noticed that at the beginning the thread spoke about the Tongues and then has moved to the Charismatic movement as a whole.

Anyway, may I ask you why did you write [i]approved[/i] with the quotation marks? This confirms again my impression of a person who says: yes, they have been approved, but not really really approved....
Have they been approved: yes, or not?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='26 May 2010 - 09:31 AM' timestamp='1274887891' post='2118153']
...because some here feel their opinions weigh heavier than bishops and even the Pope's opinions...
[/quote]
The opinions of popes and of bishops are no more important than the opinions of anyone else. The faith is not founded upon the opinions of any hierarch.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='26 May 2010 - 05:46 AM' timestamp='1274874367' post='2118100']
I believe that sola scriptura is illogical and heresy - really, plainly stupid - but I believe that it is more reasonable to believe in sola scriptura than it is to believe in glossolalia as the gift of tongues. At least the proponents of sola scriptura can twist a [i]bunch [/i]of scriptures and historic quotes out of context; far more numerous and far more substantial than the few hairs that glossolaliacs have to grasp at.

Once again I would point to the fact that glossolalia (that is, babel-prayer) receives no support from the councils and no formal acknowledgment whatsoever from the authority of the Church, and it only appears explicitly within a heretical Protestant context. If it makes you feel good, fine. But I think it is wrong to refer to it as a gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit, and I think it is wrong to use it in religious assemblies (as if it were a defined aspect of Catholic Tradition).
[/quote]
This is still the best post on this subject.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='organwerke' date='26 May 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1274888379' post='2118160']
Yes, in fact I too noticed that at the beginning the thread spoke about the Tongues and then has moved to the Charismatic movement as a whole.

Anyway, may I ask you why did you write [i]approved[/i] with the quotation marks? This confirms again my impression of a person who says: yes, they have been approved, but not really really approved....
Have they been approved: yes, or not?


[/quote]

Their approval by some is only quasi approval in as much as their seen as Catholic, this however does not conclude that their claims of supernatural events have been approved. Those actions have not been approved by the Church.

Edited May 26, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' date='26 May 2010 - 09:19 AM' timestamp='1274887150' post='2118141']
One last thing I wanted to say too about all the people saying the Church has recognized or approved the movement or whatever.


The Church approved the 1970 English translation of the missal, but almost no one here is going to use that as support for keeping our current translation...


I almost want to just say, "So what if the Church approved it?" Many things have been approved, not all of them have been good for the Church.
[/quote]
Well said.

[Apotheoun]

For example: If the Melkite Catholic Patriarch said that he believed it was a pious act to stand upside down while praying, I would have every right to disagree with his opinion. Opinion has no doctrinal or dogmatic value.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 May 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1274888981' post='2118173']
The opinions of popes and of bishops are no more important than the opinions of anyone else.
[/quote]
I greatly disagree. The opinions of Popes and Bishops have some weight and should be respected, especially in areas where there is controversy, because we need guidance from our shepherds...

[quote]The faith is not founded upon the opinions of any hierarch.[/quote]

Nor is it founded on the whims of those laity who believe their way is the [i]only[/i] way...

[organwerke]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 May 2010 - 06:05 PM' timestamp='1274889939' post='2118184']
Opinion has no doctrinal or dogmatic value.
[/quote]

This is exactly what I was trying to say.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='26 May 2010 - 10:45 AM' timestamp='1274892342' post='2118213']
I greatly disagree. The opinions of Popes and Bishops have some weight and should be respected, especially in areas where there is controversy, because we need guidance from our shepherds...[/quote]
Yes, clearly we disagree. The opinions of popes and bishops have often not only been wrong, but even heretical (e.g., Honorius on the two wills in Christ, John XXII about the particular judgment after death, etc.). Thus, no one has to agree with the opinion of a pope or bishop.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='organwerke' date='26 May 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1274892913' post='2118219']
This is exactly what I was trying to say.
[/quote]