Tongues- Gift Of The Holy Spirit?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 May 2010 - 02:57 AM' timestamp='1274774244' post='2117145']
The Old Testament prophets although speaking out before men were not understood by them, but of course God always understood the prophets.
[/quote]
I would cancel this -1, but I've got none available at the moment.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='25 May 2010 - 07:06 AM' timestamp='1274789173' post='2117162']
The true gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural, remove confusion, and have endless amounts of explicit evidence throughout Church history, as well as authoritative support from the councils. Glossolalia is natural and cross-cultural, causes confusion, has no explicit precedent in Church history (outside of modern sects of heretical Protestantism), and lacks any formal support from the councils.

There are a great many doctrinal and liturgical innovations in our modern era to choose from, all of which claim authenticity. The true gift of tongues was indeed a miracle of God - and reversed Babel - but glossolalia is not the true gift of tongues. Glossolalia [i]is [/i]Babel.
[/quote]


I like to look at tongues as vocal contemplation.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='25 May 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1274813321' post='2117359']
I like to look at tongues as vocal contemplation.
[/quote]

That's an interesting aspect.

I like it.

And really it is between God and the person, so I find that all this thought should just end there, because it doesn't concern anyone else. It's like when a group at a restaurant says a group blessing over their meal. They don't mean to make a 'show' but because of our culture and society of leaving religion as a personal/private manner it seems a bit odd that such a thing happens. Such is the same with the situation of praying in tongues say during a praise and worship session.

[zunshynn]

I like vocal contemplation too.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsw1kdLqfec[/media]

"As the deer longs for running water, so my soul longs for you"

Edited May 25, 2010 by zunshynn

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Luigi' date='25 May 2010 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1274760461' post='2117057']
What exactly is this clip supposed to imply? That unholy people use religion to their own purposes? That people who want to bilk the gullible out of hard-earned money will resort to acting as if they're holy? I used to catch a self-proclaimed "preacher" on the radio - Apos-tle Johnny Washington, God's Lasting Messenger (pronounce the T in Apostle) - who ended every broadcast by shouting about whoremongers and women in pants. He would descend into speaking in tongues - it always came out as HA na na na na na. He was clearly a charlatan, and so is this guy. If this were comedy, it would be called his schtick. It clearly has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit.

Or is it supposed to imply that everyone who speaks in tongues is some sort of raving lunatic?

Commentary with posts can sometimes clarify.
[/quote]

<commence rant>

It's actually not terribly uncommon of those (particularly here) who disagree with the use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in modern times to "imply that everyone who speaks in tongues is some sort of raving lunatic".

[quote]When I consider the modern practices of "speaking in tongues" and being "slain in the Spirit", I begin to wonder if Karl Marx may have been onto something when he said, "Religion is the opium of the people."[/quote]

- Resurrexi


[quote]My God is the God Who can be known through natural reason; My God is not Bacchus, whom the pagans knew in their drunkenness. [/quote]

- Resurrexi

My personal favorite:

[quote]Rolling round on the floor and speaking gibba jabba is not something that is within reason. [/quote]

- KnightofChrist

None of these were taken out of their original context.

All of these were one-liners.

They don't represent the full extent of what's been said on this forum concerning the charismatic gifts, not even the majority, but they're real sentiments that have been shared openly.

None of these truly represents (at least in my own experience) the nature of the charismatic renewal in the Church.

From my experience, the charismatic renewal has caused a tremendous increase in scripture reading, obedience to the Church in personal and liturgical life, respect for priests and religious, devotion to Mary, devotion to the Eucharist, non-conformity to the practices and sentiments of this current age (specifically the worse elements of American culture), and above all reverence.

Everything that nay-sayers have constantly diatribed would be forgotten have been upheld and have even flourished before my eyes. It's changed people for the better and that's all I really have to go on. Are there abuses? Of course. Are there people who behave inauthentically and in a completely unseemly matter? You bet. Let's not demonize everyone for the sake of some who are led astray. Also, lets not make false characterizations and exaggerate the practices of those who do choose to accept what the Holy Spirit wants to do in their lives.

You don't have to agree with me. You don't have to like the Charismatic renewal. It's perfectly fine if you don't. All I'm saying is that respect should be a minimum. Resurrexi, I've seen it said by you that you don't necessarily respect views with which you don't agree. That's fine. You don't need to. What I'm asking is that you at least respect these for whatever they are to you because the Church herself has come out and spoken in favor of them.

</end rant>

Edited May 25, 2010 by iheartjp2

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://credo.stormloader.com/Doctrine/pentecon.htm"]"The Pentecostalism Controversy"[/url]

[indent]— Introductory Note —

The following study "The Pentecostalism Controversy" was published by the Central Bureau Press, 3835 Westminster Place, St. Louis, MO 63108, in 1973 with the Imprimatur of the Most Rev. Charles R. Koester, Vicar General of the Archdiocese of St. Louis. It proved to be one of the first analyses of the Pentecostalist excesses which characterized what would later become known as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Since such excesses unfortunately still disfigure that movement, the study retains its value to Catholics concerned at the strange, pretentious and sometimes bizarre behavior exhibited by those claiming extraordinary gifts given by the Holy Spirit.

"The Pentecostalist Controversy" was originally given in early 1973 by James Likoudis as an address for the members of CREDO OF BUFFALO, an association of priests, religious and laity in the Diocese of Buffalo, N.Y. In 1975 CREDO became the CREDO of Buffalo Chapter of Catholics United for the Faith (CUF). Mr. Likoudis was one of the original founders of CREDO, and a frequent contributor to SOCIAL JUSTICE REVIEW, 3835 Westminster Place, St. Louis, MO, 63108, which first published "The Pentecostalism Controversy" (and which remains one of the finest Catholic periodicals furthering the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church).
[/indent]

---------------------------

[b]The Pentecostalism Controversy[/b]

[color="#FF0000"]IMPRIMATUR
September 11, 1973
Most Rev. Charles R. Koester
Vicar General of St. Louis[/color]


[indent]When the day of Pentecost came round, while they were all gathered together in unity of purpose, all at once a sound came from heaven like that of a strong wind blowing, and filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then appeared to them what seemed to be tongues of fire, which parted and came to rest on each of them; and they were filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in strange languages, as the Spirit gave utterance to each. Among those who were dwelling in Jerusalem at this time were devout Jews from every country under heaven; so when the noise of this went abroad, the crowd which gathered was in bewilderment; because each heard them speaking in his own language. And they were all beside themselves with astonishment; "Are they not all Galileans speaking?" they asked. "How is it that each of us hears them talking his own native tongue? There are Parthians among us, and Medes, and ElProxy-Connection: keep-alive
Cache-Control: max-age=0

ites; our homes are in Mesopotamia, or Judea, or Cappadocia; in Pontus or Asia. Phrygia or Pamphylia, Egypt or the parts of Libya round Cyrene; some of us are visitors from Rome, some of us are Jews and others proselytes; there are Cretans among us too, and Arabians; and each has been hearing them tell of God's wonders in his own language." So they were all beside themselves with perplexity, and asked one another, "What can this mean?" There were others who said, mockingly, "They have had their fill of new wine."

But Peter, with the eleven apostles at his side, stood there and raised his voice to speak to them; "Men of Judea," he said, "and all you who are dwelling in Jerusalem, I must tell you this; listen to what I have to say. These men are not drunk, as you suppose; it is only the third hour of the day. This is what was foretold by the prophet Joel: "In the last times," God says, "I will pour out my spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and daughters will be prophets. Your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams (Jl. 2:28); and I will pour out my spirit in those days upon my servants and handmaids, so that they will prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs on the earth beneath, blood and fire and whirling smoke; the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the day of the Lord comes, great and glorious. And then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:1-22)[/indent]

It is clear that the Pentecost experience of the Apostles gave them a supernatural fortitude in the face of dangers and threats, peace in the midst of turmoil, and joy amidst pain and persecution. They performed miracles, such as healing the sick; they prophesied; they taught with power; they spoke in tongues1. (Cf. Acts 3:1-10; 4:30; 5:12-16) All of these abilities of the early Christians, called charismatic gifts, existed in abundance in the apostolic Church. After the death of the last Apostle, John, and a short fifty years thereafter, such miraculous powers 'generally' disappeared. Prophecy and speaking in tongues — with a few exceptions as in the lives of some of the most remarkable saints — were unheard of in the Catholic Church as a mass phenomenon — until five years ago.

Today there are Catholic Pentecostals who insist there is a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit with all His charismatic gifts upon the Catholic Church. Interestingly, a similar claim was made 70 years ago by the founders of the modern Pentecostal sects.

[indent]The Jesuit scholar, Father John Hardon, has explained the origins of modern Pentecostalism:

"As a species of Protestant Christianity, Pentecostalism may be traced to the ministry of Edward Irving (1792-1834), pastor of a Presbyterian church in London. Irving had witnessed speaking in tongues and some cases of healing in Glasgow, Scotland. He reported back to his congregation in London that if only the people prayed earnestly, they, too, might be filled with the gifts of the Spirit. Soon after, some of his parishioners began to speak in strange tongues and prophesy .... By 1832 he had started his own congregation .... 2[/indent]

His disciples, known as the Irvingites, were soon followed by Quakers, Shakers, and Mormons, and yet other sectarians, who similarly preached that external signs are an essential part of integral Christian belief and experience. In the United States sharp doctrinal divisions manifested themselves among the followers of John Wesley, the founder of Methodism. The latter, as Father Hardon notes:

[indent]"...had never been much concerned with creedal orthodoxy. Experience of conversion and an awareness of the Spirit had always been more prominent in Wesleyan thought."3[/indent]

When Wesleyan Holiness groups who stressed a "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" united with the disciples of Irving, modern Pentecostalism may be said to have been born.

The Pentecostalist emphasis on the "Baptism of the Spirit" seems to have been derived from Wesley's doctrine of entire sanctification. Whereas the Puritans had believed the process of Christian perfection was never consummated in this life, and entire sanctification comes only at or after death, Wesley was to insist on the possibility of the believer's achieving an instantaneous completion of sanctification at any time in this life. Though Wesley never lost sight of a gradual "growth in grace" even among such "perfect" souls, his unfortunate use of the word "sanctification" where he meant "entire sanctification" was to cause much confusion among his followers.4

According to the earliest Pentecostalists, Christians who have already had the experience of conversion which is necessary for salvation, should seek a "second blessing." This was another, more profound experience which accomplished the believer's "entire sanctification," and permitted him to lead a life of moral perfection, untroubled by any interior "root of sin."5 Some Holiness writers proceeded to describe this specific experience as a "Baptism in the Holy Spirit." While this second blessing might be an intensely emotional experience for the person receiving it, it was nevertheless essentially interior and subjective. In these writers, there was no consciousness of any external sign by which witnesses could be certain the "second blessing" was taking place. Then it was that:

[indent]"The most dramatic event in Pentecostal history occurred on New Year's Eve, 1900. Before Charles Fox Parham, a lay Congregational preacher, left on a mission trip, he instructed his students at Bethel Healing Home in Topeka to investigate the subject of baptism in the Holy Spirit. When he returned, they told him that the gift of tongues was conclusively this Spirit baptism. They asked him to impose hands on one of their number, a Miss Oznam. The moment he did so, she was "filled with the Holy Spirit" and began to speak in several languages, besides talking in a strange tongue that not even accomplished linguists could understand. Before long, most of the students at Bethel became similarly gifted, and went out to preach the new gospel to all who would hear them."6[/indent]

To summarize: Pentecostals believe that the original Pentecostal experience recounted in the Acts of the Apostles of the New Testament was the normal experience of all believers in the primitive Apostolic Church, and that all believers even now are entitled to, and should aspire to, a similar experience of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit." They further believe that, as at Pentecost, this outpouring of the Holy Spirit is manifested by the external sign of glossolalia, i.e., the speaking in strange tongues. Though there is some confusion among both Protestant and Catholic Pentecostals as to whether glossolalia as the initial sign of Spirit-baptism should be clearly distinguished from the subsequent, lasting gift of speaking or praying with tongues (which not all receive), it seems that most traditional Pentecostals will not recognize any genuine "Baptism in the Spirit" unless it has indeed been accompanied by the sign of glossolalia7. At any rate, it is this classical Pentecostal emphasis which has worked itself into the religious thinking of Catholic Pentecostals — to condition their entire religious experience.

[url="http://credo.stormloader.com/Doctrine/pent

[KnightofChrist]

“to speak in tongues you had never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom in cases of alleged diabolic possession.”

Msgr. Ronald Knox, Enthusiasm, [Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1950], p. 551.

[Selah]

[quote]“to speak in tongues you had never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom in cases of alleged diabolic possession.”[/quote]

lol. Always demons, isn't it?

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote]
At any rate, it is this classical Pentecostal emphasis which has workeditself into the religious thinking of Catholic Pentecostals — tocondition their entire religious experience.
[/quote]

While, I will say that Rev. Koester is not wrong in his discussion concerning this. There has to be discernment within the Charismatic movement in which there is, only most that are drawn into the movement are often left only with emotions and no real guides to help in the knowledge of going deeper within these emotions, and knowing where they are from.

I am reading Monsignor Vincent M. Walsh's book, "A Key to Charismatic Renewal In the Catholic Church", which I am eating more or less and it is such a good commentary and introduction into what exactly the Charismatic movement is.

[iheartjp2]

Great story. Can you pinpoint exactly where this thinking "worked itself into the religious thinking of Catholic Pentecostals". Your argument seems almost entirely like the argument anti-Catholics use to "prove" that Catholicism is inherently pagan in nature.

Are you aware of the events that happened at Duchesne in the late 60s/early 70s? Do you know about the Word of God, the ecumenical community that began between a group of Catholics, Lutherans, and Presbyterians in Ann Arbor Michigan around the 70s? Did you know that there were Church-sanctioned prayer meetings held in St. Mary's Cathedral in Lansing around this time? I would look into that before I automatically believe that Protestantism is the main cause of the modern Charismatic renewal in the Church. Many of the people who were there when it first happened are still alive today.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='25 May 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1274814661' post='2117382']
“to speak in tongues you had never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom in cases of alleged diabolic possession.”

Msgr. Ronald Knox, Enthusiasm, [Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1950], p. 551.
[/quote]


To speak in tongues is a sign of the Holy Spirit. -The Holy Bible

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Selah' date='25 May 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1274814906' post='2117386']
lol. Always demons, isn't it?
[/quote]

When it comes to spirits, there are but two types, Angelic and Demonic. Demonic spirits can appear to be good and feel good, but they bring confusion, disorder, and unreasoned actions or thoughts.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='25 May 2010 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1274818722' post='2117446']
To speak in tongues is a sign of the Holy Spirit. -The Holy Bible
[/quote]

It was during the time of the Apostles. What exists now is not of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit does not deal in disorder. The modern way of speaking in tongues is nonsense.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote]Holy Father Pope Paul VI singled out for criticism those who esteem "the charismatic elements of religion over the so-called institutional ones." He went on to rebuke those who:

engage in the search... for spiritual facts in which there enters an indefinable and extraneous energy which, to a certain extent, persuades the one who experiences it that he is in communication with God, or more generically with the Divine, with the Spirit, indeterminately. What do we say about this? We say that this tendency is very risky, because it advances into a field in which auto-suggestion, or the influence of imponderable physical causes, can lead to spiritual error.[/quote]

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

To be able to tell if you or someone is is living an authentic life in the Holy Spirit, we must recognize the fruits of the Holy Spirit and what is contrary to a life in the Holy Spirit.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is [b]love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control[/b]. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Almost every one I meet who produces these fruits extraordinarily are part of or approve of the Charismatic Renewal. But on the other hand those I meet who are really against it usually seem to be lacking Joy, gentleness and kindness. from my personal observation it seems as if the holiest people I meet are Charismatic. And Im not really even into the Charismnatic movement nor do I pray in tongues, I just recognize holiness when I see or experience it.