Tongues- Gift Of The Holy Spirit?

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 May 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1274754863' post='2116938']
Rolling round on the floor and speaking gibba jabba is not something that is within reason.
[/quote]

Never did I mention either one of those.

And if all you are going to use are extreme examples, then please take your generalizations else where.

[Selah]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDezBGUuOQI[/media]

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

1Cor. Ch.14:1-2

Follow after charity, be zealous for spiritual gifts; but rather that you may prophesy. For [color="#FF0000"]he that speaketh in a tongue[/color], [b][u][color="#00FF00"]speaketh not unto men[/color][/u][/b], but unto God: for no man heareth(or understandeth). [color="#800080"]Yet by the Spirit he speaketh mysteries.[/color]

Why has this scripture not been taken into consideration by those of you who beleive the Church has erred in accepting and approving the Charismatic Movement as a legitimate movement of the Holy Spirit, which some of you beleive to be pagan rituals?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='24 May 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1274755977' post='2116972']
1Cor. Ch.14:1-2

Follow after charity, be zealous for spiritual gifts; but rather that you may prophesy. For [color="#FF0000"]he that speaketh in a tongue[/color], [b][u][color="#00FF00"]speaketh not unto men[/color][/u][/b], but unto God: for no man heareth(or understandeth). [color="#800080"]Yet by the Spirit he speaketh mysteries.[/color]

Why has this scripture not been taken into consideration by those of you who beleive the Church has erred in accepting and approving the Charismatic Movement as a legitimate movement of the Holy Spirit, which some of you beleive to be pagan rituals?
[/quote]
The Church does not and cannot err.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 May 2010 - 08:35 AM' timestamp='1274708159' post='2116491']
There have been saints throughout the Church's history who had the same gift of tongues that the Apostles had. I hadn't known that until I read it a little while ago.
[/quote]

I would be interested to know who these Saints were.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='24 May 2010 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1274756247' post='2116981']
I would be interested to know who these Saints were.
[/quote]
I don't know why you posted an eye-rolling smile, but I just so happen to have a very credible source handy.
(Blue lettering is Mr. Birch's work, green is his quoted source.)

From Trial Tribulation and Triumph by Desmond Birch:

[color="#000080"]St. Vincent Ferrer (14th Century)

St. Vincent, who died in 1419, was a contemporary of St. Catherine of Sienna. He was publicly honored as the greatest Canon lawyer of his time as well as one of its greatest theologians. For over 30 years he had and used an equivalent of the gift of tongues almost daily[/color].

[color="#006400"]"It was at Genoa, that people first realized the existence of a daily miracle which had been worked continuously for four or five years... Everywhere he went he was understood by all... Once it was realized what was happening it was not long before this remarkable phenomenon was being discussed with enormous interest right through the town... What language was the preacher using, for all were ready to swear that he was using their native tongue?
At last a deputation of the learned men of Genoa put the question to Vincent himself.
'You are all wrong and all right, my friends,' said the friar with a smile, 'I am speaking Valencian (a Spanish dialect), my mother tongue; for, except for Latin and a little Hebrew, I know no other Spanish [sic, language]. It is the good God who has rendered this intelligible to you.'
This fact was juridically attested at the process of the saint's canonization by more than a hundred witnesses; they say that it was not merely the general sense that they understood, but they could appreciate every turn of expression... Furthermore, distance made no difference to them, for those on the outskirts of the huge crowds could hear as distinctly as those who were close to the pulpit." [/color]
(Angel of the Judgement, A Life of St. Vincent Ferrer, S.M.C., Ave Maria Press, Notre Dame, Indiana, 1953,, pp 137-138.)

[color="#000080"]He healed the blind, deaf, lame, those who were possessed, etc. His public miracles were in the thousands. He also specifically preached a call to repentance in order to put off the end times. His travels, prayers, miracles and words to a great measure brought a loose- living age back to a more serious practice of the faith."[/color]




There are a handful of other examples of astounding miracles performed through St. Vincent Ferrer, but not relevant to this, no matter how fascinating. One, for instance, would be a dead woman sitting up testify to the truth of his prophecies.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Luigi]

1Cor. Chapter 13 verses 1-2

"If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."


"It sounds to me like St. Paul is just saying "if I am a great public speaker" or "if I preach the faith eloquently."

I always find these kinds of arguments interesting because they're based on a literal vs. a metaphorical/literary interpretation of words that we all know but don't understand in the same way. When does one interpret a verse ("This is my body" or ""If I speak with the tongues of men or angels") literally and when metaphorically?

Edited May 25, 2010 by Luigi

[Luigi]

[quote name='Selah' date='24 May 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1274755187' post='2116948']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDezBGUuOQI[/media]
[/quote]
What exactly is this clip supposed to imply? That unholy people use religion to their own purposes? That people who want to bilk the gullible out of hard-earned money will resort to acting as if they're holy? I used to catch a self-proclaimed "preacher" on the radio - Apos-tle Johnny Washington, God's Lasting Messenger (pronounce the T in Apostle) - who ended every broadcast by shouting about whoremongers and women in pants. He would descend into speaking in tongues - it always came out as HA na na na na na. He was clearly a charlatan, and so is this guy. If this were comedy, it would be called his schtick. It clearly has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit.

Or is it supposed to imply that everyone who speaks in tongues is some sort of raving lunatic?

Commentary with posts can sometimes clarify.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Luigi

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 May 2010 - 10:14 PM' timestamp='1274757242' post='2116998']
I don't know why you posted an eye-rolling smile, but I just so happen to have a very credible source handy.
(Blue lettering is Mr. Birch's work, green is his quoted source.)

From Trial Tribulation and Triumph by Desmond Birch:

[color="#000080"]St. Vincent Ferrer (14th Century)

St. Vincent, who died in 1419, was a contemporary of St. Catherine of Sienna. He was publicly honored as the greatest Canon lawyer of his time as well as one of its greatest theologians. For over 30 years he had and used an equivalent of the gift of tongues almost daily[/color].

[color="#006400"]"It was at Genoa, that people first realized the existence of a daily miracle which had been worked continuously for four or five years... Everywhere he went he was understood by all... Once it was realized what was happening it was not long before this remarkable phenomenon was being discussed with enormous interest right through the town... What language was the preacher using, for all were ready to swear that he was using their native tongue?
At last a deputation of the learned men of Genoa put the question to Vincent himself.
'You are all wrong and all right, my friends,' said the friar with a smile, 'I am speaking Valencian (a Spanish dialect), my mother tongue; for, except for Latin and a little Hebrew, I know no other Spanish [sic, language]. It is the good God who has rendered this intelligible to you.'
This fact was juridically attested at the process of the saint's canonization by more than a hundred witnesses; they say that it was not merely the general sense that they understood, but they could appreciate every turn of expression... Furthermore, distance made no difference to them, for those on the outskirts of the huge crowds could hear as distinctly as those who were close to the pulpit." [/color]
(Angel of the Judgement, A Life of St. Vincent Ferrer, S.M.C., Ave Maria Press, Notre Dame, Indiana, 1953,, pp 137-138.)

[color="#000080"]He healed the blind, deaf, lame, those who were possessed, etc. His public miracles were in the thousands. He also specifically preached a call to repentance in order to put off the end times. His travels, prayers, miracles and words to a great measure brought a loose- living age back to a more serious practice of the faith."[/color]




There are a handful of other examples of astounding miracles performed through St. Vincent Ferrer, but not relevant to this, no matter how fascinating. One, for instance, would be a dead woman sitting up testify to the truth of his prophecies.
[/quote]


Thanks. The eye rolling smiley was more of a smiley looking up at your post. Sorry for the confusion.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Luigi' date='24 May 2010 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1274759965' post='2117052']
1Cor. Chapter 13 verses 1-2

"If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."


"It sounds to me like St. Paul is just saying "if I am a great public speaker" or "if I preach the faith eloquently."

I always find these kinds of arguments interesting because they're based on a literal vs. a metaphorical/literary interpretation of words that we all know but don't understand in the same way. When does one interpret a verse ("This is my body" or ""If I speak with the tongues of men or angels") literally and when metaphorically?
[/quote]
Literally the Greek word ἀγγέλων means messenger, and it is used throughout the LXX Old Testament in connection with both patriarchs and prophets.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='24 May 2010 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1274755977' post='2116972']
1Cor. Ch.14:1-2

Follow after charity, be zealous for spiritual gifts; but rather that you may prophesy. For [color="#FF0000"]he that speaketh in a tongue[/color], [b][u][color="#00FF00"]speaketh not unto men[/color][/u][/b], but unto God: for no man heareth(or understandeth). [color="#800080"]Yet by the Spirit he speaketh mysteries.[/color]

Why has this scripture not been taken into consideration by those of you who beleive the Church has erred in accepting and approving the Charismatic Movement as a legitimate movement of the Holy Spirit, which some of you beleive to be pagan rituals?
[/quote]
The Old Testament prophets although speaking out before men were not understood by them, but of course God always understood the prophets.

[Selah]

[quote name='Luigi' date='25 May 2010 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1274760461' post='2117057']
What exactly is this clip supposed to imply? That unholy people use religion to their own purposes? That people who want to bilk the gullible out of hard-earned money will resort to acting as if they're holy? I used to catch a self-proclaimed "preacher" on the radio - Apos-tle Johnny Washington, God's Lasting Messenger (pronounce the T in Apostle) - who ended every broadcast by shouting about whoremongers and women in pants. He would descend into speaking in tongues - it always came out as HA na na na na na. He was clearly a charlatan, and so is this guy. If this were comedy, it would be called his schtick. It clearly has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit.

Or is it supposed to imply that everyone who speaks in tongues is some sort of raving lunatic?

Commentary with posts can sometimes clarify.
[/quote]


oh phatmass, you never disappoint

[Ziggamafu]

The true gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural, remove confusion, and have endless amounts of explicit evidence throughout Church history, as well as authoritative support from the councils. Glossolalia is natural and cross-cultural, causes confusion, has no explicit precedent in Church history (outside of modern sects of heretical Protestantism), and lacks any formal support from the councils.

There are a great many doctrinal and liturgical innovations in our modern era to choose from, all of which claim authenticity. The true gift of tongues was indeed a miracle of God - and reversed Babel - but glossolalia is not the true gift of tongues. Glossolalia [i]is [/i]Babel.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Ziggamafu

[JustJump]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='25 May 2010 - 08:06 AM' timestamp='1274789173' post='2117162']
- but glossolalia is not the true gift of tongues. Glossolalia [i]is [/i]Babel.
[/quote]


Interesting. Where did you learn the term for it? Glossolalia that is, I didn't know they had given it a name.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 May 2010 - 02:57 AM' timestamp='1274774244' post='2117145']
The Old Testament prophets although speaking out before men were not understood by them, but of course God always understood the prophets.
[/quote]

This scripture is not even mentioning the Old Testament Prophets. Seems like your making things up to suit your beleif on the matter.