Tongues- Gift Of The Holy Spirit?

[Mikaele]

I've been to a lot of Catholiccharismatic groups. And one thing I notice a lot is the amount ofpeople 'praying in tongues.' Now I'm not very well versed in Biblicalstudies, but from what I remember reading in Acts, the Apostles whoreceived the gifts of tongues, were able to speak their own language and be heard inforeign languages. Now when I hear these people, 'praying in tongues,'I don't understand a single thing they're saying. I have my own theory,I think that they are praying, but without words. And I do not think itis a 'gift,' as in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But I still think itis acceptable as you can pray to God without words.

What are your thoughts?
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[AccountDeleted]

Done privately, between a person and God, well, then it doesn't matter about interpretation but personally, I like St Paul's comment. Basically, he seems to be saying that if someone wants to pray in tongues in community, then someone else should be interpreting it. Otherwise, what is the point?

Just my view though.

[Mikaele]

But the 'praying in tongues' I see at charismatic events has never been practised by any of the Saints we know of. There is no documented history. And if it was a 'gift of the Holy Spirit,' and the least of these, then I would think that Padre Pio, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Francis of Assisi and Mother Teresa would all be doing it. But the case is quite the opposite.

[dominicansoul]

I have always been very confused about what charismatics say is "the gift of tongues." I always thought the gift of tongues was given to the Apostles on Pentecost Sunday, when they were speaking and every single foreigner could understand their words in their own language. When I witness a person speaking in tongues, and I hear nothing but babble, I wonder if there is someone in the congregation who actually can understand what that person is saying, as if the message was meant only for that one person who can interpret it. I find it all very confusing, and honestly, I don't see the need for that in my own personal experience of God, so it hasn't really been a factor in my life...I just find it confusing when I hear others speak of it.

[Nihil Obstat]

There have been saints throughout the Church's history who had the same gift of tongues that the Apostles had. I hadn't known that until I read it a little while ago.

[JustJump]

[quote name='Mikaele' date='24 May 2010 - 04:07 AM' timestamp='1274688438' post='2116461']
Now when I hear these people, 'praying in tongues,'I don't understand a single thing they're saying. I have my own theory,I think that they are praying, but without words. And I do not think itis a 'gift,' as in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But I still think it is acceptable as you can pray to God without words.
[/quote]

To be honest[i] [/i]I think it's bull. Purely psychological. (I speak strictly of the modern day "speaking" in tongues, not the kind described in the gospel.) I think people get very overwhelmed with emotions in large social situations and actually do speak in some non language triggered by the pressures and thier desire to speak in tongues. I don't know the psychological term for this but I suppose it's a lot like stomatic disorders where people actually make themselves sick (without being consciously aware). I don't doubt that a lot of the people are sincere and full of love and spirit, but I don't quite think it's so...I don't know God-caused? '

I've seen people "slain in the spirit" before and I put that in quotes because I highly doubt that's what it really was. It was when I was in middle school on vacation with a family whose daughter I was friends with. Her family was on a retreat for thier church (Charismatic Episcopalian?) and the kids only had to attend two services. I saw forty+ people keel over backwards after being blessed by thier bishop. And pretty much only the really feverant ones were the ones that were slain. I distinctly remember one girl crying her eyes out when she wasn't slain in the spirit. I just didn't buy it. Even as a 6th grader it seemed like something that was much more psychological than anything else. Anyone seen anyone slain in the spirit? I'm curious if it was different?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JustJump' date='24 May 2010 - 08:54 AM' timestamp='1274712848' post='2116520']
To be honest[i] [/i]I think it's bull. Purely psychological. (I speak strictly of the modern day "speaking" in tongues, not the kind described in the gospel.) I think people get very overwhelmed with emotions in large social situations and actually do speak in some non language triggered by the pressures and thier desire to speak in tongues. I don't know the psychological term for this but I suppose it's a lot like stomatic disorders where people actually make themselves sick (without being consciously aware). I don't doubt that a lot of the people are sincere and full of love and spirit, but I don't quite think it's so...I don't know God-caused? '

I've seen people "slain in the spirit" before and I put that in quotes because I highly doubt that's what it really was. It was when I was in middle school on vacation with a family whose daughter I was friends with. Her family was on a retreat for thier church (Charismatic Episcopalian?) and the kids only had to attend two services. I saw forty+ people keel over backwards after being blessed by thier bishop. And pretty much only the really feverant ones were the ones that were slain. I distinctly remember one girl crying her eyes out when she wasn't slain in the spirit. I just didn't buy it. Even as a 6th grader it seemed like something that was much more psychological than anything else. Anyone seen anyone slain in the spirit? I'm curious if it was different?
[/quote]
I agree.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='JustJump' date='24 May 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1274712848' post='2116520']
To be honest[i] [/i]I think it's bull. Purely psychological. (I speak strictly of the modern day "speaking" in tongues, not the kind described in the gospel.) I think people get very overwhelmed with emotions in large social situations and actually do speak in some non language triggered by the pressures and thier desire to speak in tongues. I don't know the psychological term for this but I suppose it's a lot like stomatic disorders where people actually make themselves sick (without being consciously aware). I don't doubt that a lot of the people are sincere and full of love and spirit, but I don't quite think it's so...I don't know God-caused? '
[/quote]

Obviously this is open minded. Being that praying is a private matter for each individual, I think prayer in tongues is legitimate. Given I cannot speak for everyone, but I will say that I do speak in tongues and I was not "overwhelmed" by a large crowd. It has helped open me up, and the thing is that praying in tongues cannot be contained it has to emerge, it opens on self up, for the Holy Spirit is speaking through you and causing words that praise the Lord to emerge from your mouth. Whether they can be understood or are some mysterious language or not does not matter since you are praising God in a new and way from the Holy Spirit as such. An there are benefits, and I find it a lack of faith if one merely writes it off as a psychological conflict. Though lack of faith may be a bit harsh, I will say skeptical, which is fine, but the "it's bull" I find that offensive to those that do pray in tongues and find it a part of their spirituality, which has helped them grow closer to God.


[quote]
I've seen people "slain in the spirit" before and I put that in quotes because I highly doubt that's what it really was. It was when I was in middle school on vacation with a family whose daughter I was friends with. Her family was on a retreat for their church (Charismatic Episcopalian?) and the kids only had to attend two services. I saw forty+ people keel over backwards after being blessed by their bishop. And pretty much only the really fervent ones were the ones that were slain. I distinctly remember one girl crying her eyes out when she wasn't slain in the spirit. I just didn't buy it. Even as a 6th grader it seemed like something that was much more psychological than anything else. Anyone seen anyone slain in the spirit? I'm curious if it was different?
[/quote]

I have been slain in the spirit before, and for me it was during a empowerment night with my household, The Fishers of Men. My household brothers prayed over me and in that time I was slowly pulled away into a relaxed state in which I could not move nor did I have a wish too. My ears could hear things going on as other household brothers were prayed over others, yet my mind was elsewhere and I had an incredibly peace on and within me, as I had a small conversation with God. Once the presence of the Lord faded or at least lessened I was able to get up, though my limbs still felt heavy and then I returned to praying over my brothers. It is a hard thing to grasp to some degree, since some people just hold reservations upon it and are skeptical, but that is because it is a deeply personal experience.

[JustJump]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='24 May 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1274731299' post='2116658']
Obviously this is open minded. Being that praying is a private matter for each individual, I think prayer in tongues is legitimate. Given I cannot speak for everyone, but I will say that I do speak in tongues and I was not "overwhelmed" by a large crowd. It has helped open me up, and the thing is that praying in tongues cannot be contained it has to emerge, it opens on self up, for the Holy Spirit is speaking through you and causing words that praise the Lord to emerge from your mouth. Whether they can be understood or are some mysterious language or not does not matter since you are praising God in a new and way from the Holy Spirit as such. An there are benefits, and I find it a lack of faith if one merely writes it off as a psychological conflict. Though lack of faith may be a bit harsh, I will say skeptical, which is fine, but the "it's bull" I find that offensive to those that do pray in tongues and find it a part of their spirituality, which has helped them grow closer to God.
[/quote]

I'm not doubting that there is such a thing as speaking in tongues, I just think it's very very very rare. And it's no longer defined as the same as it was in the gospels where each person heard their own language. Which is what catches my attention. I don't think it is something any average joe can do at any old meeting or event. That's why I'm skeptical.

I do believe in a lot of cases it is absolute bull. Not trying to be offensive. I wouldn't call it a lack of faith to disagree with a something that is widely debated. I'm fine with expressing one's love of God in many different manners. Meditate, say a Rosary, read, pray, look at nature, go on a retreat, talk with peers...I think we each experience the Spirit when we're deep in prayer sometimes. Speaking in tongues just doesn't strike me as genuine in most of the cases I've seen/heard of.

Q: Anyone ever or ever heard of someone speaking in tongues when alone in prayer? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/idontknow.gif[/img]

oh and is that sarcasm I sense about being open minded? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]Because I was an atheist...just saying [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/D.gif[/img]

Edited May 24, 2010 by JustJump

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='JustJump' date='24 May 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1274740181' post='2116715']
I'm not doubting that there is such a thing as speaking in tongues, I just think it's very very very rare. And it's no longer defined as the same as it was in the gospels where each person heard their own language. Which is what catches my attention. I don't think it is something any average joe can do at any old meeting or event. That's why I'm skeptical.

I do believe in a lot of cases it is absolute bull. Not trying to be offensive. I wouldn't call it a lack of faith to disagree with a something that is widely debated. I'm fine with expressing one's love of God in many different manners. Meditate, say a Rosary, read, pray, look at nature, go on a retreat, talk with peers...I think we each experience the Spirit when we're deep in prayer sometimes. Speaking in tongues just doesn't strike me as genuine in most of the cases I've seen/heard of.

Q: Anyone ever or ever heard of someone speaking in tongues when alone in prayer? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/idontknow.gif[/img]

oh and is that sarcasm I sense about being open minded? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]Because I was an atheist...just saying [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/D.gif[/img]
[/quote]

The thing is that there is a difference between, Speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. Both are from the Holy Spirit, only they have different uses and have different purposes. Speaking in tongues is a passing gift, in which we saw in the Gospels and in stories here and there throughout history and even present day.

Sure some people may not be genuine in their tounges, but then who are we to judge one another, its like pointing out specks in each other's eyes. Last time I checked we are all hypocrites too. And honestly, I didn't like the whole praying in tongues to begin with, and didn't wanna make a show of my faith either, but the Holy Spirit and God had other plans.

A: I have, in which it was me. If that counts.


And yes that was sarcasm, and congrats and being an ex-atheist haha. I don't really know everyone's background here, so I apologize for that.

[Ziggamafu]

Glossolalia is a well documented, cross-cultural phenomenon. It is neither unique to the late-appearing sects of Protestantism that spawned its popularity among some modern Christians nor is it unique to religious experience (it can occur as an involuntary accompaniment to a psychological disorder or head trauma, and there is at least a basic similarity to be found in secular scat-jazz). From my own research, I am under the impression that there is absolutely no explicit evidence of glossolalia as a gift of the Holy Spirit in Church history, and certainly no magisterial endorsements of it. The closest supporters can get is by grasping at straws with the "ecstasies" or "jubilations" of a small number of saints - none of which may be conclusively argued to be a case of glossolalia. The first record of explicit instances of glossolalia, claimed as a gift of the Spirit, occurs only with the advance of "Pentecostal" Protestantism, not in any teaching of the true Church.

Moreover, any claim that the Holy Spirit inspires glossolalia as a divine gift would, ironically enough, seem to directly contradict the message of the Pentecost miracle of tongues; that the work of the Incarnation has provided a means of restoration and reunification to fallen humanity, scattered and dispersed by the Spirit at Babel. Pentecost is a reversal of Babel. The same Spirit who descended to scatter the tongues of men into lunacy and confusion at Babel now descends to bring an end to that confusion and sectarianism. Divinely inspired glossolalia seems to be a return to Babel.

Can glossolalia be a fun and even beneficial exercise? I'm fine with the idea that the probable answer is yes. Is it one of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit? No, I do not think so. And I think that the dangers of using glossolalia in religious settings (much less claiming it as a divine gift) are obvious. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion. Nor do the true gifts of the Holy Spirit lie dormant in any period of history.

[JustJump]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='24 May 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1274741695' post='2116727']
Sure some people may not be genuine in their tounges, but then who are we to judge one another, its like pointing out specks in each other's eyes. Last time I checked we are all hypocrites too.
A: I have, in which it was me. If that counts. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_grin.gif[/img]


And yes that was sarcasm, and congrats and being an ex-atheist haha. I don't really know everyone's background here, so I apologize for that.
[/quote]


I'm so crushed... [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadwalk.gif[/img]


[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_pound.gif[/img]Nah, no worries dude. I've got what 55 posts? I don't expect you or anyone here to know that, some of my friends are shocked when they find out. So no apologies necessary. Um, I'm not sure how to take a congrats about that though [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/think_chin.gif[/img] lol


And as for the judging part...well I'm an INFJ accoriding to Meyers-Briggs...nah, um the post asked for an opinion. And my opinion is that a lot of it is psychological. I feel like judging is different than giving an opinion. There is a fine line though. Just becuase I think a lot of it is psychological doesn't mean I don't think it can be meaningful, or that it is real sometimes, or that the people that are speaking are filled with a ton of faith...

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='JustJump' date='24 May 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1274742959' post='2116753']

And as for the judging part...well I'm an INFJ accoriding to Meyers-Briggs...nah, um the post asked for an opinion. And my opinion is that a lot of it is psychological. I feel like judging is different than giving an opinion. There is a fine line though. Just becuase I think a lot of it is psychological doesn't mean I don't think it can be meaningful, or that it is real sometimes, or that the people that are speaking are filled with a ton of faith...
[/quote]

Gotcha, and yes there is a fine like and that's why there has to be more mature discerning within such things, though sadly it still lacks. There has to be balance, just as there has to be balance between intellect and faith and etc.

And yes the people that are speaking are from what I can tell extremely holy people, at least the ones I have heard and come into contact with.

Oh and I am an ENFP : D

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='24 May 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1274742721' post='2116750']
Glossolalia is a well documented, cross-cultural phenomenon. It is neither unique to the late-appearing sects of Protestantism that spawned its popularity among some modern Christians nor is it unique to religious experience (it can occur as an involuntary accompaniment to a psychological disorder or head trauma, and there is at least a basic similarity to be found in secular scat-jazz). From my own research, I am under the impression that there is absolutely no explicit evidence of glossolalia as a gift of the Holy Spirit in Church history, and certainly no magisterial endorsements of it. The closest supporters can get is by grasping at straws with the "ecstasies" or "jubilations" of a small number of saints - none of which may be conclusively argued to be a case of glossolalia. The first record of explicit instances of glossolalia, claimed as a gift of the Spirit, occurs only with the advance of "Pentecostal" Protestantism, not in any teaching of the true Church.

Moreover, any claim that the Holy Spirit inspires glossolalia as a divine gift would, ironically enough, seem to directly contradict the message of the Pentecost miracle of tongues; that the work of the Incarnation has provided a means of restoration and reunification to fallen humanity, scattered and dispersed by the Spirit at Babel. Pentecost is a reversal of Babel. The same Spirit who descended to scatter the tongues of men into lunacy and confusion at Babel now descends to bring an end to that confusion and sectarianism. Divinely inspired glossolalia seems to be a return to Babel.

Can glossolalia be a fun and even beneficial exercise? I'm fine with the idea that the probable answer is yes. Is it one of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit? No, I do not think so. And I think that the dangers of using glossolalia in religious settings (much less claiming it as a divine gift) are obvious. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion. Nor do the true gifts of the Holy Spirit lie dormant in any period of history.
[/quote]
Well said, and I share your opinion that "glossolalia" as experienced today is not a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Mikaele]

Yes, like I said. There is no evidence of any Saint ever, 'Praying in tongues,' the way we see in the charismatic movements. There is no letter of Saint Ignatius of Antioch to the Churches in Asia Minor instructing them in how to conduct a praise and worship service (not that there's anything wrong with P & W,) how to 'slay someone in the Spirit,' or how to publicly praying in tongues. (Tongues in the Bible are different to what we see in charismatic services.)