Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

As I sit here and ponder my experience as both a Baptist and a Lutheran, seeing God both from the views of modernism (corporate worship/theology) and of liturgical worship, I find myself most deeply at peace in a liturgical setting. Where we see what covenant theology means every single Sunday.

In the anabaptist heratige, that of Zwigli, the Bible is taken at face value after being translated into English. The Bible did indeed say "Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you will be saved".

Yet when we take the Bible at face value like that we leave huge gaping holes in theology and worship. People have been trying to reconcile these holes for centuries and as a result we have have everything from the Baptist faith to the Word of Faith Cult, Binny Hinn, and even Mormons and JW's.

And by following the traditions of their fathers, Baptists have made the best out of the truth they do have.

Yet there is a reason why people use the words "fullness of faith". Liturgical worship has the guidance of the church, and encompasses all that scripture says.

You can say "We are saved by faith" and you are right, but you just left out 90% of what salvation is all about.

Being saved encompasses our whole life and our whole being. Being liberated from evil is never found just by the sinners prayer in the Bible. It is found in the beautiful words of covenant.

As God's creation, we are called to covenant theology. To be baptized in Christ, to be a member of the church, the body of Christ, to take up the cup of our salvation, and to live a life of faith.

In the Reformation we see the race to lower salvation to the lowest common denominator. "Having faith" ends up meaning "pray a simple prayer so you never have to worry about salvation again". But that isn't a covenant. That is a contract.

The Bible doesn't speak of contract theology though. It speaks of covenant theology.

Adam and Eve, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus. We see God's salvation in covenant form through the whole Bible. All the words, all the language of the Bible leads us to covenant theology. The witness of the early Church, the church as a whole as it even exists today, calling us to liturgical worship. Even in Revelation we see a liturgical worship in heaven.

Liturgical worship is not about gaining knowledge, or singing songs, it is about drawing as intimately close to God as humanly possible. It is recieving our salvation, being santified, being made whole.

Just my thoughts this evening.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 21 2004, 07:03 PM'] What is a covenant? [/quote]
A promise made between two people? An unbreakable promise?

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Hmm...how do I reply to that without sounding ignorant? :confused:


You say that the sinners pray is not in the Bible: I agree.

You say that the sinners prays is not the saving factor: I agree.


How about looking at it this way:

A person says a prayer, to confirm their belief. It is not themselves saving them, it's the Lord. The sinners pray is more to confirm, for yourself, that you have faith. That you've been [b]given[/b] that saving faith.

I believe this is a misconception that some Catholics have about many Baptists. When I said the sinners prayer, that prayer didn't save me, in fact, I was saved before I ever said that prayer, but it was at that time that I realized what it meant to live for Christ, I said the prayer, and along with that promised God to live for Him. The best I could.

Baptism, in the Baptist church, is two-fold. In the Catholic church, if I'm not mistaken, baptism makes the infant/adult part of the Catholic church, same with the Baptist church. It's also a reminder of Christ's sacrifice and how we live and die and live with Christ.

We die to our sins (go under the water), and we are raised in Christ (raised out of the water). Sure, it's symbolic, but we often forget the greater purpose of being baptized. God requires it.

God's grace is such a beautiful thing, it's what cleanses us from our sins, and our repeats sins.

God (as Baptists believe) brings us into His family when we have the faith (which is confirmed through the sinners prayer), and we live as part of his family.

In your experience, Brother Adam, how closely related are the Baptist and Catholic faiths/

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Hmm...how do I reply to that without sounding ignorant?  :confused:[/quote]

Say it like it is

[quote]A person says a prayer, to confirm their belief.  It is not themselves saving them, it's the Lord.  The sinners  pray is more to confirm, for yourself, that you have faith.  That you've been [b]given[/b] that saving faith.  [/quote]

What you are trying to work out here is "Where does man come in, where does God come in?" This is a question I had to spend alot of time on. I wrote the following on FlyFree Ministries. Notice though how you are trying to work this out for yourself. Shouldn't there be a "Pillar and Foundation of Truth" to show you the Truth?

[quote]Catholics do not believe in a works-based system. They believe in a Grace-based system. The sacraments are not a way in which a Catholic "earns" salvation. They are a way in which one participates in the New Covenant. Faith and belief are two different things. Faith calls us to obedience (Romans 1:5). Salvation is by grace and through faith. It is only through faith alone, if one, through proper semantics, understands that faith and fruits are tied, inseparably together.

Of God
Christian salvation is the total liberation from evil in which one goes from the unregenerate state of living in sin to the regenerated state of living in Christ. Redemption begins at one point in time and ends with a person’s entrance into heaven.

Grace alone – All aspects of man’s redemption are possible only by the grace of God alone. God through the Holy Spirit acts in man to move him to a response to God. Thus all actions of man towards God are only through the grace of God. God’s work does not begin at one point and end at one point, but transcends from beginning to end.

God’s action through the Lord Jesus Christ allows man to return to the relationship with God first given to Adam and Eve. Because all works of sacrifice through the Mosaic Law fall short of necessary appeasement for sin towards a righteous God, the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the role of High Priest and instead of sacrificing a lamb for the people he became the Lamb of God, the perfect atonement for the sins of the people. This atonement through the grace of God is made available not only to the chosen Jewish people, but now also to the Gentiles- that is all mankind.

The Lord Jesus Christ in a New Covenant found through his blood described the participation in the New Covenant as family affair. Jesus described the adoption of the believer as a son of God, and commanded baptism as the cleansing of sin nature. Not as a work of man, but as a participation in the work of God. In baptism, water is combined with the Word of God to bring about the work of God. Through the adoption in baptism man is called to participate in the New Covenant through communion, partaking of the Pascal lamb.

The view that participation in the sacraments are a work of man meant to earn salvation is a false conclusion. When the Word of God speaks that works of salvation are not of man, they are not referring to the sacraments, which are the work of God to salvation.

Of Man
Man’s responsibility through the grace of God in salvation is to respond and participate in the free gift of God offered to man. Not through his own works, but through the work of God. This is most beautifully expressed through the baptism of infants, in which man, in faith, brings children to the Lord Jesus to enter into the family of God through the power of God.

Man is given free will to reject or accept the gospel message. While once a Christian, man can never lose the sacramental seal of baptism, that is, adoption as a son of God, man is still free to choose to reject the inheritance offered to Him through faith in Christ. If man does not live his faith and rejects God’s grace after adoption he risks cutting himself off from God’s grace. Christ, our one mediator will never lose any of those entrusted to him, however man is permitted in free will to break the covenantal relationship with God. [/quote]

As you can see we do have a responsibility to be participants in receiving our salvation. You assert that God does the work and then we "pray" to confirm it. Catholics affirm that God does the work and he does it through baptism. We just participate in it.

[quote]I believe this is a misconception that some Catholics have about many Baptists.  When I said the sinners prayer, that prayer didn't save me, in fact, I was saved before I ever said that prayer, but it was at that time that I realized what it meant to live for Christ, I said the prayer, and along with that promised God to live for Him.  The best I could. [/quote]

This goes directly against the Baptist tenant that states one must "Personally accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior".

Baptist Theologian Charles Ryrie states: "Saving faith (is) a reliance on the truth of the Gospel as revealed in the Word of God" and goes on to state four facets through which faith is recieved: "The Intellectual, the emotional, and the volitional facet". (Basic Theology, 377-8)

Baptists believe an action of acceptance must take place in order to be saved. This is why the doctrine of the "Age of reason" exists to allow those who cannot intellectually respond (intellectual facet) to the gospel are excused from the consequences of sin.

[quote]Baptism, in the Baptist church, is two-fold.  In the Catholic church, if I'm not mistaken, baptism makes the infant/adult part of the Catholic church, same with the Baptist church.  It's also a reminder of Christ's sacrifice and how we live and die and live with Christ.  [/quote]

Baptism in the Catholic Church makes one an adopted child of God. It is a symbol, but it is not ONLY a symbol. In the Baptist Church baptism is merely a symbol, which one should partake in, but it bares no importance to salvation.

[quote]We die to our sins (go under the water), and we are raised in Christ (raised out of the water).  Sure, it's symbolic, but we often forget the greater purpose of being baptized.  God requires it.[/quote]

[quote]God's grace is such a beautiful thing, it's what cleanses us from our sins, and our repeats sins. [/quote]

It is through God's grace that we are cleansed of sin. However, we still bear the responsibility of participating in God's plan for our life as revealed by the scriptures.

[quote]God (as Baptists believe) brings us into His family when we have the faith (which is confirmed through the sinners prayer), and we live as part of his family.[/quote]

Unfortunately, the Bible, nor does Christian history confirm this.

[quote]In your experience, Brother Adam, how closely related are the Baptist and Catholic faiths[/quote]

In some ways, very closely related, because we are all adopted as children of God through a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As the Reformation went on though, people gradually went further and further from the Catholic Church to their own understandings of scripture, relying on the teachings of men to properly understand scripture, and oft times giving up on doctrines simply because they were "Catholic" so they "couldn't be true"

Edited April 23, 2004 by Brother Adam