Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

We aren't talking step brothers or sisters, or distant cousins.

We are talking about adoption into an immeadiate family.

Let's say we weren't married and you were an orphan. If my father adopted you into our family, would you only be a child of my father? And if you were to say that you become mystically my brother, and are connected to all the brothers and sisters, would you not also be connected to the mother? You are adopted by the father into the body of Christ and become a member of the body of Christ. And Jesus' mother becomes your mother.

Because she is the mother of Jesus, yes, and also because we are one in the body of Christ.


Mary................ God
mother .................Father

............ Jesus
.......... Brother


Christians ---- Brothers and sisters to Jesus


This is all one big family! If Jesus becomes your brother, and God your Father, and mystically, all Christians brothers and sisters, then Mary who is a part of the body of Christ too, becomes your mother.


Jake Huether also brought up a good point:

[quote]I wanted to note to you that the Church is the Body of Christ. And since Mary gave birth to the Historical and Physical Body of Christ, she also gave birth to the Mystical Body of Christ. Again, like I had mentioned in my posts with you, Mystical does not imply subordinate to reality. Mystical is not symbolic. We are really the Body of Christ, in a Mystical way. And since we make up the Body of Christ, it was Mary who gave brith to us and is our Mother, Mystically.[/quote]

Edited April 16, 2004 by Brother Adam

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote]Let's say we weren't married and you were an orphan. If my father adopted you into our family, would you only be a child of my father?[/quote]

[i]Well...I can guarantee that we would've never married! [/i]

So...here's the snag: When a father or mother adopts a child, it is their (mother and father's) marriage that makes the other the second parent of this child.

So...Mary is not married to God, or is she? Using your logic, the only implications one could come to would be that because God adopts us into His family, that Mary becomes our mother, and therefore she must be married to God.

This is how a Protestant's mind works....If Mary is married to God, then the doctrine is quite easy to accept, if not, then please help me to understand.

[Brother Adam]

If I am adopted into a family, and you are my sister, my aunts become your aunts, my nephews become your nephews.

Mary------mother--------Jesus ((((God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, bound together by the Trinity)))))

Brother in Christ--------Jesus---------sister in Christ

You're adopted into a royal family by royal blood. Either you are a part of the body of Christ or your not. If you are a part of the body of Christ, then you are related to Mary, who is a part of the body of Christ.

[Brother Adam]

How about this: Mary is "married" to the Holy Spirit.

Look up what happened with Ruth and Boaz. She "went under his power", just as Mary went under the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Oh! Ok! That makes sense!

Question #2

Why does Catholicism baptize children before they can be aware of what they're being baptized into?

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Oh! Ok! That makes sense! [/quote]


Wait...that is all I needed to write?






Brother Adam
:stupid:

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 17 2004, 12:16 PM']

Wait...that is all I needed to write?






Brother Adam
:stupid: [/quote]
Yes.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Question #2

Why does Catholicism baptize children before they can be aware of what they're being baptized into[/quote]

Well, I'll try the easy way out then since that would have worked for question number uno.

Salvation, or being brought back into a relationship with God and liberated from evil is a life long process. In the New Covenant Christ warned not to hinder anyone from being brought to him, including children.

So Catholic parents bring their children to Jesus in the New Covenant through baptism, similiar to Baptists parents bringing their children, in faith, to their pastor to be prayed over.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

So what's the difference?

Would one be more valid than the other? If so, why?

[Brother Adam]

No, because prayer is not how we are made members of the New Covenant, the family of God, and the mystical body of Christ.

From Flyfree Ministries

[quote]Baptism

Baptism is commanded of by Christ. This fundamentalists and Catholics agree on. The question at hand is: Is baptism regenerative? If redemption is a legal contract between God and man, which requires only man to say that they believe in God and accept the Bible to be true, then no. But if redemption goes beyond that and is a covenant in which God adopts man into a family and if baptism is the means by which God brings us into the covenant, then yes.

The sacraments are actions by which God either brings man into his family or by which man is reconciled or strengthened in that family. Baptism has an incredible parallel to the old covenant in which a member had to be circumcised in order to enter into that covenant. There wasn't any choice about it. To become a Jew, a gentile would have to be circumcised. This was the sign, physically, that the person was brought into the family of God. But not only was it a sign, it was also the action through which the spiritual change took place. Before a gentile was circumcised they could not be considered a Jew.

In Gods' new unconditional covenant with man, baptism is the sign by which man is brought into the covenant. Not only is it a sign of dying and rising again with Christ, but it is also when God adopts us. Notice: Baptism is not a work of the law. It isn't a work at all. It is where man submits himself to the authority of both the Church, both the pillar and foundation of Truth, and of God. The sacraments should not be viewed as works that man does to earn his salvation. Nothing can be done to earn our salvation. Man can only accept the grace of God and be redeemed. Which is exactly what baptism does: it is the action of God that through his grace he redeems us and makes us forever a child of God.

Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

[i]Here we see the Christ did indeed command that all nations be baptized using the proper "formula". That is "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."[/i]

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[i]Jesus gave no indication that his words were to be taken only metaphorically and no where else in scripture is baptism relationship to redemption described as only metaphorical. Notice how baptism isn't included in the second phrase. It is possible, though rare, that someone will be faithful but never have the chance to be baptized before death. This is called a baptism of desire, or baptism of a martyr.[/i]

John 3:5 (KJV)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


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Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:41 (KJV)
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12-13 (KJV)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. [13] Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 8:36-38 (KJV)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? [37] And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. [38] And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Acts 9:18 (KJV)
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Acts 10:46-48 (KJV)
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 16:14-15 (KJV)
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. [15] And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Acts 16:33 (KJV)
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Acts 18:8 (KJV)
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Acts 18:25 (KJV)
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Acts 19:4-5 (KJV)
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. [5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16 (KJV)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[i]Every single instance in the book of Acts, the only inspired recording that we have of the actions of the early Christians, all those who responded to the gospel were baptized. As the book goes on even entire households were baptized together. Those who are adults who have not been baptized, first are asked if they accept the gospel message and then if they desire baptism. In the case of infants, the parents bring the child forth and through the faith of the parents they baptize their child. Infants and small children are no where in scripture excluded from the covenant, and Jesus demanded that no one would hinder any child to come to him. While there is no specific example of infant baptism in the Bible (due to most converts being adults as the covenant has just been instituted), the weight of both scripture, through exegesis and typology, and the weight of the first Church Fathers who were taught by the Apostles themselves is overwhelmingly in favor of including infants in the New Covenant as they were the old.[/i]


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Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[i]Baptism is both symbolic, and redemptive. There is outward symbolism, and inward change. [/i]

1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[i]Baptism unites us as Christians into one family. This is an awesome truth[/i].

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephes. 4:5 (KJV)
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephes. 5:26 (KJV)
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Col. 2:12 (KJV)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1 Peter 3:18,21 (KJV)
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit ...The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[i]More verses that speak of the power of baptism and how seriously it was taken.[/i] [/quote]

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Ay, yi, yi! My head!

That's a lot of scripture there, Brother Adam. Could I ask you to explain it in your own words, please? Kinda simplify it for now?

[Brother Adam]

That is basically what I did, is put it in my own words. If you notice after I start quoting scripture there are "italized" parts, there are short explainations. This is about as simple as I can make it though.

Through baptism we are made children of God.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

OK...let me say what I know to be true, so far.

1. The purpose of infant baptism is to cleanse the infant from all original sin.
2. Catholics believe that this saves the infant?
3. The infant is not responsible for its own spirtual journey until confirmation, but the parents and godparents are instead?

If God is not willing that any should be lost, then what difference would it make if an infant is baptized or not, since it's the blood of Christ that cleanses us from sin, not water? Wouldn't it then, be more of a symbol, then?

[Brother Adam]

It is the blood of Christ that makes our salvation possible. However, we know that everyone is not saved.

The cup of Christ is the cup of the "New Covenant". Very powerful words. How is the New Covenant applied to our own souls?

The New Testament never says "Thus now prayer doth now save you", but it does say on several occasions "Thus baptism now saves you"

Being saved is a process of being liberated from evil. Baptists believe this happens instantaneously at a moment of "right belief". Catholics believe it is a life long process of "You have been saved, you are being saved, and you will be saved".

Edited April 21, 2004 by Brother Adam

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Baptists do believe that when someone is saved into the faith that a prayer is involved, however, more than anything else they believe that the blood shed on that cross is what saves us, through faith.