Brother Adam

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

NO...really....care for another one-on-one debate?

[Brother Adam]

Okey-dokie

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Come on, guys, I'm serious!

I really want a one-on-one debate with Brother Adam!

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Question #1:

Why such the emphasis on Mary in the Catholic church?

[Brother Adam]

This is now a closed thread for Bro. Adam and Mrs. Bro. Adam only.

Moderators, Please delete any new posts not by us.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Again...


Quesiton #1:

Why all the emphasis on Mary in the Catholic church?

[Brother Adam]

MODERATOR: Please, seriously, DELETE ALL non-essential parts of this one on one thread. [color=blue]This is VERY RUDE[/color].

Mrs. Bro. Adam is seriously trying to learn. Thank you.

Edited April 14, 2004 by Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

[quote]John 19:25-27 (ESV) 
    but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.  [26] When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"  [27] Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. [/quote]

I personally do not believe that there is a single event surrounding the suffering of our Lord Jesus Christ, which does not have significant meaning. And I believe this scriptural passage says it all.

Most Protestant scholars claim that this passage merely means that because of Jesus' death he was giving the care of his mother to someone who could take care of her.

To this I ask: What did the death of Jesus accomplish? Was it just a rebel prophet being put to death? Of course not! The cross has spun tens of thousands of hours of discussion and debate.

In this event something incredible happens.

[color=red]When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Woman[/color], behold, your son!"

Woman, declares Jesus! To call your mother a "woman" in Hebrew culture, just like in our culture would be scandalous. Jesus though, through his work on the cross is echoing an event that took place some 6,000-8,000 years previous:

Genesis 2:22-23 (ESV)
And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. [23] Then the man said,
"This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man."

Genesis 3:12-13 (ESV)
The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." [13] Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Death entered into the world through Eve, and life enters into the world through Mary. Through Adam we all inherit original sin, and through Jesus we all inherit eternal life.

Mary literally became the ark of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is in Jesus’ blood. In the old ark the keys to covenant were kept. What was Noah’s boat called? Genesis 6:18. Yep. Ark. In the ark of the covenant was the law (Exodus 25:16) the rod of Aaron (Numbers 17:10) and a pot of manna. What redemption came through (now Jesus, through his blood), the authority that exercised law (Jesus and the New Law), and the food of life from God (Communion, the blood of Jesus).

Matthew 26:28 (ESV)
For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

So Mary, in effect becomes the ark of the new covenant.

She is hailed as “full of grace” by the angel Gabriel.

[quote]Luke 26-38
    [26] And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. [28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, [B]Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.[B] (SOUND FAMILIAR?) [29] And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. [31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: [33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34] Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? [35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. [36] And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. [37] For with God nothing shall be impossible. [38] And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. [/quote]

Mary was espoused to Joseph, but Joseph was much older than Mary, and died before Jesus began his ministry. When Jesus is no longer able to care for Mary, she is given to the disciples, to be cared for by them. Which also tells us that Jesus had no biological brothers. His brothers were his cousins, which Hebrew law states legally become brothers when one has no biological brothers. Had Jesus had biological brothers it would have been very insulting to them and a violation of the law to give Mary to John.

Which brings us to an amazing point: When you are adopted as a child of God, Jesus becomes your brother, and God becomes your Father. But where is your spiritual mother? Do we have a brother and Father, but no mother? Jesus gives Mary (the ark of the new covenant) to Mary at the cross.

But Mary is not a part of the Trinity. She is infinitely below divine, and saved by the grace of God alone, and preserved by God alone for His good will. And Mary’s purpose is to point the disciples to her Son.

[quote]Here is an official statement on Mary by the Catholic Church.
"Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God's salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she "being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."(6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith."(7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her "the Mother of the living,"(8*) and still more often they say: "death through Eve, life through Mary."(9*))" - Lumen Gentium (Second Vatican Council)[/quote]

That in a nutshell is the emphasis Catholics place on Mary. Only what is due.

[Brother Adam]

[url="http://www.flyfreeministries.org/Traditions.htm#Mary"]http://www.flyfreeministries.org/Traditions.htm#Mary[/url]

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

I realize that you just attempted to explain why Mary is our spiritual mother, but my mind still cannot comprehend it.

Why isn't she just the Earthly mother of Jesus? Was that not her purpose while she was here on Earth?

[IcePrincessKRS]

[b]I have deleted all posts other than those by Adam and Teresa. If I see any posts by other people [color=red]they will be deleted on sight, no questions asked. [/color]

Got it?

Good. [/b]

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Why isn't she just the Earthly mother of Jesus? Was that not her purpose while she was here on Earth?[/quote]

Okay, let's try a slightly different approach.

Did Jesus come as a political messiah or a Savior to bring us back into a relationship with God?

Mary gave birth to Jesus, who is God. That does not mean she begat God (created God), but she did give birth to God. Divine and all. The Bible's message is that we need a family relationship with God. This is consitently the message God has for us throughout the whole Bible: Family. Starting with the Trinity, family royale, to Adam and Eve, the first family. To Noah and his sons, to Abraham. God makes covenants with a family, then families, then tribes, then the nation of Isreal, and then we have Jesus. And suddenly the new covenant is opened to all! Jew and Greek!

Our relationship to God is not a business contract. Check here, sign here, pray here. Okay, done, your saved, thanks, see you in heaven. It is a covenant relationship requiring our participation, though not any merit through our own power.

When you see the covenant as entering a family relationship with God, and you understand that Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is our brother, it isn't so far fetched.

Yes, Mary did take care of Jesus when he was growing, but it didn't end there. Mary wasn't handed over to cousins or other family, but to the disciples, as we have a relationship with Jesus our brother, we also have a relationship with Mary. Mary did not cease to be Jesus' mother when she went to heaven. She still is. And if the Transfiguration is any clue as to what the Saints are up to, then I think we are fairly safe with the Catholic position.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote]Did Jesus come as a political messiah or a Savior to bring us back into a relationship with God?[/quote]

A Savior to bring us back into a relationship with God.



[quote] Mary wasn't handed over to cousins or other family, but to the disciples[/quote]

Wasn't she handed over to just one person, though?

[b] With what you've just said:

What proof/ logical thinking is there, though, that Mary is our spritiual mother? You said that she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is our brother. Yes, I agree, but the link that ties us is the Father, not the mother.
Same sort of situation. I have four brothers, only one in which I share both father and mother. Two I share the same mother, but not father, and one that I share the same father, not mother.

With the line of thinking that you just used, then the brother, with whom I share my father, connects me to his mother, and his mother becomes my mother. But that isn't true, is it? Please, I'm not trying to be difficult, but simply learn.

I agree that Mary was the mother of God, but I disagree that simply because we are the brother and sisters of Jesus, that Mary, then, becomes our Mother.

Please try again. I really want to see how Mary is our mother.[/b]

[Brother Adam]

Okay. Hrm...How to approach this.

First, I strongly suggest "Hail, Holy Queen" by Scott Hahn. I mean, STRONGLY suggest it if you want to go from a straight biblical exegesis point of view.

1) The foundational creeds of the early Christian church include the belief in the communion of the saints. This belief has been well documented as an
understanding that those in heaven are alive and praying for those on earth. (See: Transfiguration, Prayers of the Saints in Revelation)

2) The saints and those in heaven are not bound by time like we are. So they could in fact pray for all those who request prayer. (thousand years like a day)

3) As significant as Jesus is in history, so too is Mary, the mother of God significant. I have outlined why her role is special in my previous posts.

4) While Mary was given to "the disciple", you have to remember there is a spiritual signifigance to it. Just as while Jesus died on the cross (the temple is torn down and rebuilt in three days) it was not just a man dying on a cross. Jesus did not give Mary to his "brethren" which means he had no immeadiate brethren. Nor did he give Mary to one of his cousins. Jesus called Mary "woman" but did not insult her. He made a dramatic connection to Mary's role in salvic history.

5) While the Bible does not spell out the Trinity in any fashion, it is foundational to Christianity. While there is evidence for the Trinity in the Bible, the doctrine comes from the Church. So too does Mary's role in our salvation (giving birth to Christ).

6) There is a significant amount of evidence that we are spiritually bound to our other brothers and sisters in Christ as a family, and that the new covenant is a family relationship, even father the whole Bible describes God's relationship with us as a family relationship.

7) When a brother or sister in Christ dies in their physical body, they are still our brothers and sisters in Christ, only in heaven.

8) Because Mary gave birth to both Jesus' humanity and divinity (though did not begat God), Mary, spiritually, though not physically, is connected to all those in Christ.

9) Futher we are all "one body in Christ". This shows a dramatic representation of how we are connected to Christ. We are not all "members of the Christian family" but "one body in Christ". That is an increadible family connection.

So what I'm saying is because you cannot seperate Christ's divinity from his humanity, Mary is the Mother of God as a whole. Spiritually and Humanly. And because we are spiritually connected to Christ in a family relationship, we are also spiritually connected to Mary. As we are spiritually connected to our other brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Still don't see it.

You're saying that we're connected to Mary, as our Spiritual Mother, because she is the Mother of Jesus, right?

Then that logic is faulty. See my previous post with the analogyy which I posted.


Thanks.