Open Theism And Aeviternity

[Innocent]

Each time the topic of Open Theism comes up here I read the threads with great interest. I have thought about this at times when I have free time, and some questions occurred to me, which I am putting down in this thread.

The doubt regarding some aspects of TWT that I mention in this thread occurred to me today and I thought I'd better post it here before I forget it or some other work comes up and prevents me from logging on to the net.

First, I should state that I don't have access to the books on TWT recommended by Revprodeji. So if my doubt is already clarified in any of those books, please forgive me for asking an already answered question.


If I understand what RevProdeji says correctly, there is nothing other than time. God does not exist "out of time." Hence I suppose that would imply that the angels and the souls of dead people also exist in time.

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='22 April 2010 - 03:07 AM' timestamp='1271882249' post='2097490']
I disagree with the premise of God "outside of time". I think that is a bad concept of time and a forced limiting of God based on that bad understanding of time.[/quote]


My understanding of the angelic spirits and the souls of dead human persons so far has been what I got from reading Frank Sheed's Theology And Sanity:

[quote]For the changelessness of GOD there is ETERNITY; for the continuous changefulness of MATTER there is TIME. Time is the duration of that which changes, as eternity is the duration of that which does not change.

But what of spirit?

Because it knows change at all, even if only accidental change, it is not in eternity; but because the changes it knows are not continuous, it is not exactly in time, either. The spirit does indeed know a before and after.

If God gives an angel a particular revelation, for instance, then something in the angelic mind is aware of his state when he did not have the revelation and his state when he has it.
But there is nothing in the nature of spirit that requires these changes; they happen when they happen, they do not bring change into his nature itself; and in between, the spirit rests in the changeless possession of what he has.

His NOW is more closely akin to the abiding now of eternity than to the flowing now of time. For his duration, too, there is a word - the word aevum or AEVITERNITY, the duration of that which in its essence or substance knows no change: though by its accidents it can know change, and to that extent is in time too, but a sort of discontinuous time, not the ever-flowing time of matter.

Aeviternity is the proper sphere of every created spirit, and therefore of the human soul. But the soul's special relation to the matter of the human body gives it a necessary and proper relation to continuous time (which is the body's duration) which other spirits are not troubled by.

At death, this distracting relation to matter's time ceases to affect the soul, so that it can experience its proper aeviternity. But during this life, time presses upon the soul, if only by way of the heartbeats that never cease. The soul can become too much immersed in matter, in the limitations of time and space and change. Love of change is a disease that the soul contracts from the body; one sure symptom of it is the inability to contemplate. During contemplation, time really does stand still for the soul, which is one reason why we should practise it: for it means practising the soul in its own proper element.
[/quote]SOURCE: Theology And Sanity, Chapter XI, "The Created Universe", Section III





Also, Deacon Doug McManaman writes in his article on Angels, [url="http://www.execulink.com/~fcsasc/angels1.html"]"Angels: Their Existence and Nature"[/url]

[quote]Angels had a beginning. But this does not mean that they have a temporal existence. Time is an accident of material substance, as was said, and angels are not material things. Yet angels have volition, and so they make choices. Such choices, though, are not eternal because the angel itself is not eternal. And so there must be a kind of duration that is proper to the spiritual existence of an angel. This is called aeviternity, which is neither eternity, nor time, but the mean between the two.

Consider time for a moment. I, a living material substance, make a decision to begin writing this article. That decision is in the past. The writing of this article unfolds in time, in which there is a before and an after. My thinking is not sensation, but it is linked with sensation, which is in turn intimately linked with matter, which is subject to motion. That is why my thinking occurs in time. The actual communication of those ideas through written sentences also involves physical motion, and thus time. The previous paragraph is in the past, as well as the words of this very sentence. But an angel is entirely immaterial and thus substantially immutable, so all of this is outside of its experience. There is no looking back at its own footprints, so to speak. Rather, every decision that an angel makes marks an indivisible aevum which does not pass, but which remains. It did not come from out of the future, but from the angel itself. So when Gabriel reveals the good news to Zechariah, it is not as if he waited hundreds of years after explaining to Daniel the meaning of his vision. Gabriel's decision corresponds to a moment of our time, but aeviternity is not time. The angel dwells forever within the aevum created by his own decision. St. Thomas writes:

...the angels, who have an unchangeable being as regards their nature with changeableness as regards choice; moreover they have changeableness of intelligence, of affections and of places in their own degree. Therefore these are measured by aeviternity which is a mean between eternity and time. But the being that is measured by eternity is not changeable, nor is it annexed to change. In this way time has "before" and "after"; aeviternity in itself has no "before" and "after," which can, however, be annexed to it; while eternity has neither "before" nor "after," nor is it compatible with such at all (ST. I. Q. 10. a. 5).

It is by virtue of this non-temporal existence that angels do not repent of their decisions. One could say there is "no time" to repent, and that would be true enough. But a better explanation concerns the degree of knowledge involved in an angel's choice. We make decisions on the basis of what we know, feel, and will. Our knowledge is acquired gradually, so we are limited by a number of things, such as ignorance and the passions. Our conscience is not entirely formed, and we often experience the pressure of human emotion which can cloud our judgments. In other words, we tend to make errors in judgment, some of which we may be responsible for, and some of which we may not. Human nature is far more complex than the angelic nature. The angel does not have emotion to contend with, nor does the angel need time to grow from his experiences. This is specifically human because of the essential materiality of human existence. An angel's mind is completely enlightened about its choices, and so the decision an angel makes is perfectly and entirely free.

Because our decisions can be made on the basis of a clouded judgment, we can repent of them. For example, a student walks into a class late, the teacher becomes angry and sends her outside, speaks to her harshly and demands that she return for a detention. Later, he discovers that the girl is going through terrible abuse every day at the hands of someone at home and that she is sleep deprived. It occurs to him that had he known the details of her situation, he would have acted differently. Through experience he learns not to assume that everything is well at home with his students. Gradually he becomes more aware of the kinds of students he is dealing with. Perhaps he decides to become more understanding in general.

But this sort of experience is not something angels are subject to. Their decisions are entirely enlightened, and so there is no "reason" that is eventually uncovered that would change their course of action. Hence, the fundamental orientation of their lives is unalterable (by their own choice), and all the choices they make are an outflow of their original decision to either love and serve God, or to rebel against Him. [/quote]



But if I understand TWT right, the angels and the souls in heaven and hell are also in time.

Thus my questions are:
____________________________________________________________________________________

1. How do we understand the Fall of the Angels as an event that happened once and then the good angels are somehow guaranteed never to fall after that (when I say "happened once" and "after that," I am obviously using the ways of speaking of time in a clumsy way to refer to happenings in Aeviternity.)

1.a. Wouldn't this imply that any good angel has the potential to fall through pride at any time in the present or in the future? If so, wouldn't it mean that we can never trust our Guardian Angels or the other angels to the extent that we imply we do when we say our daily prayers to our Guardian Angel or the Chaplet of St. Michael, or the prayers to St. Raphael or St. Gabriel?

1.b. Wouldn't this also imply that there is a possibility for a fallen angel to repent for its sin and be restored to Divine Favour?

2. The same question as above can also be asked about the souls of the dead: Wouldn't every soul in hell have the potential to repent and atone for sins in some way and obtain the forgiveness of God? Also, what guarantee is there that a soul in heaven will not fall into sin at any time in the future and thus fall away from a state of grace?

____________________________________________________________________________________


As I said above, please excuse me if these questions are already answered in the books that were recommended. Normally I would refrain from discussing a subject before I have ready any standard books on that subject but as I said, I don't have access to those books and it does not appear that I may be able to get them in the near future.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Innocent

[Innocent]

Edit: Sorry, double post.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Innocent

[Laudate_Dominum]

bump.

I hope that Rev in particular sees this thread.

[N/A Gone]

I see it, but I am crazy busy for the next 2 weeks.

I am curious how people will answer this from the "authentic" Catholic perspective. In the other thread Brother Adam mentioned some scripture questions that the negative nancys never answered.

btw, I am leaning more towards the idea that time is an illusion. That is, we create it to explain sequence but it is an illusion. The problem then is that we try and keep God away from this "time" as we understand it and you end up with weird contradictions.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Revprodeji

[kafka]

The problem with time and place is that these truths are so general and fundamental that they often evade the mind and therefore often evade a good sound explanation even by scholars. The truth of time and place is simple yet subtle, intricate yet somehow obvious. Like all deep things created by Wisdom time and place are tantalizing, something one cannot quite put one's finger on so to speak, like wisdom herself.

So I think the tendency of some scholars is too overdue the whole concept of time and place since it is so important and attractive, like for example I just perused an article in a science journal suggesting time is an illusion, which is absurd. Try explaining that to an 80 year old whose organs are collapsing. Time is real and in one sense is truly a burden. Human nature longs for Eternity who is God.

Heaven transcends time and place since it is with God who is Eternity. Transcends means 'going or climbing beyond' which I like better than 'outside of'

Purgatory is a place and the sufferings souls are undergoing the change of time.

Hell is a place and the fallen angels and souls are stuck in time which is actually one of their punishments.

Here are basic definitions of time and place:

Time is the ordering and separation of events into before and after.
Place is the separation and ordering of things and events into here and there.
Time and Place are spiritual as well as material. Yet God is not spiritual nor a spirit.

Time and Place are basically the same, hence Einstein theory of relativity, space/time, etc. They are inherent in creation (the cosmos), or proceed from creation yet a human person may actually transcend all time and place by being of Heaven with God who is Eternity.

Heaven transcends time and place since it is with God who is Eternity. Heaven is Timeless and Placeless, yet that is one side of the coin. Heaven is also Timefull and Placefull. Heaven is all Time and all Place put together which transcends all Time and all Place in one vision and union with God who is Eternity. To be with God in Heaven is somehow to be in a plane or mode of existence which is timeless and placeless as well as timefull and placefull.

Once one enters Heaven, he was always there from the beginning of its creation since Heaven transcends all Time and Place. In Heaven there is no seperation or division into before and after or here and there.. He sees God creating the universe and is witness to the cosmos unfolding. He sees all events, everything in astonishment. This may seem like a simple explanation yet if one meditates on it, it is very difficult to grasp.

The souls in Purgatory are still in time. They undergo spiritual change which is inherently is a separation into a before and after, for example at one point they are more Christ-like than a previous point. At one point they have atoned for more of their debt of temporal punishment than a previous point.

The fallen angels and souls in Hell are stuck in time undergoing constant change of one suffering to another.

Edited May 24, 2010 by kafka

[N/A Gone]

I do plan on responding. We are in finals right now (I teach at a College-Prep academy).

I would appreciate it sir (kafka) if you clarify more of your point please.

[kafka]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='26 May 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1274928635' post='2118848']
I do plan on responding. We are in finals right now (I teach at a College-Prep academy).

I would appreciate it sir (kafka) if you clarify more of your point please.
[/quote]
you know I think I just stated some random thoughts on my mind about time and place, and how this relates to Heaven, Purgatory and Hell.

I was not following the other thread, and to be quite frank with no offense to Innocent or anyone I find the questions posted to be to a certain degree useless since they seem not to take the teachings of Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Magisterium into account. I will try to answer question one:

[i]1. How do we understand the Fall of the Angels as an event that happened once and then the good angels are somehow guaranteed never to fall after that (when I say "happened once" and "after that," I am obviously using the ways of speaking of time in a clumsy way to refer to happenings in Aeviternity.)[/i]

I am not sure how you are using aeviternity, but to me it basically is a fancy word for a spiritual realm or a spiritual place such as Purgatory. Heaven transcends any spiritual realm or aeviternity. It is a timeless and placeless container if you will, containing the angels and saints with God.

God created the angels before he created the Universe. The spiritual is higher than the physical so that would make sense:

{1:1} In the beginning, God created heaven and earth.

Heaven being the spiritual realm of the angels and earth being the unfolding of the cosmos leading up to the formation of earth. The angels were created in the state of sanctifying grace yet they were not given the beautific vision. Instead they were given tasks by God to assist with the unfolding of the cosmos. This could have lasted literally billions of years.

The angels are pure spirits. They dwelled in a spiritual realm connected to the cosmos in some way. They have the faculties of will and intellect and memory just like the souls of humans. Their social life is much like that of humans on earth. They have names and communicate with eachother in a spiritual language both beyond the comprehension of men. Their society is structured into a hierarchy. Some of the angels were probably friends with others according to the proximaty of their tasks.

Probably near the time earth was complete God revealed to them his plan for the human race. He revealed Christ on the Cross and that they were to worship and serve him. Christ and the Cross is a mystery. Christ and the Cross is open and accessable to reason as well as beyond reason. No one will ever fully comprehend it, not even the angels and they had not yet recieved the immediate vision of God. So this was their test. So what happened was that all of the angels were given a choice to accept or deny this truth which transcends the power of created reason.

Some or perhaps even just one deliberately chose to deny it. They could have reasoned something like 'why should we serve a nature lower than ourselves?' Or something of the sort. This is a temptation posited by the intellect which needs faith to love and obey that which transcends its own understanding. So instead of obeying God in an act of Faith some decided to rebel against God's plan by rejecting it, thus losing sanctifying grace. This is roughly the theological opinon of the scholastics.

Satan before he fell was Lucifer. He was probably one of the greatest angels, an archangel, who had a high task and had a lot of influence in the structure of their society. Once he fell he would have been an evil influence to many of the other angels. That is why in my opinion Christ called him a liar and murderer from the beginning. He began spreading lies about God's plan and was the indirect cause of many of the fallen angels murdering the sanctifying grace in their spirits by rejecting God's Revelation. For grace is the life of the soul. As many of the angels began to reject God a battle ensued:

{12:7} And there was a great battle in heaven. Michael and his Angels were battling with the dragon, and the dragon was fighting, and so were his angels.
{12:8} But they did not prevail, and a place for them was no longer found in heaven.
{12:9} And he was thrown out, that great dragon, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduces the whole world. And he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

God was with Michael and the good angels. They cast some into hHll which was originally and primarily created by God to contain and punish these fallen angels. Others were cast down from the heavens to earth in order to roam the earth in God's all wise plan. The Fall of the angels happened before Adam and Eve since Satan was in the Garden. And he assumed Michael and the good angels into Heaven. So from then on they experience the unfading happiness of the beautific vision amd union, while they continue to perform tasks for God and battle the fallen angels on earth according to God's will. Once in Heaven experiencing beautific vision and union it is impossible to sin. God does not permit it, and the angels and saints do not desire it, all while retaining free will. Sin is an abuse of free will.

The Fall of the Angels is somewhat of a mystery but the nature of their choice must have been the exultation of their intellects over God's Revelation and Plan of the Incarnation which he revealed to them as a test. And this is fitting for goes to Heaven without accepting and knowing Jesus Christ.

So that is roughly my understanding. Some of the things I said are supported by Scripture but I dont want to spend the time looking up all the verses now.

Edited May 27, 2010 by kafka

[Innocent]

Kafka, perhaps my wording of the questions I posted was not clear enough. In your answer you start with the idea that "Heaven transcends any spiritual realm or aeviternity. It is a timeless and placeless container if you will, containing the angels and saints with God." I can understand that, in such a situation, the angels and souls of the saints would not sin. But that was not what I was asking at all.

What I meant was this: [b]If, according to TWT[/b](assuming that I have understood TWT right from what I read of Revprodeji's posts), the fallen angels and souls experiencing eternal torment in Hell as well as the Angels and Saints experiencing the Beatific Vision in Heaven [b]are not in a state other than time[/b], [i]then[/i], how do we understand that repentance is impossible for the fallen angels and souls of the damned, and sin impossible for the unfallen Angels and souls of the Saints? (From our experience of living in time in this world, even the greatest saint has the potential to sin, and the greatest sinner has the potential to repent; so if the angels and souls of the dead are not in a state other than time, how should we understand that repentance and sin are impossible in hell and heaven?)

Thus, to clarify further, the questions I asked "seem not to take the teachings of Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Magisterium into account." since they are asked not in the context of conventional theology but in the context of Open Theism.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Innocent

[kafka]

I see. I guess I am lost to the context. Will follow along the rest of the thread and see if I can contribute afterwards.

[N/A Gone]

bump (for myself, will not be able to respond for a week still. L_D, got something to say?)

[kafka]

I dont understand why this thread was started or what the interest is, hopefully in order to refute this system. I will follow along and weigh in my opinion.

[N/A Gone]

The typically phatmass reaction to open theism is to not provide counter argument and discussion, but make an attack and then mock it and then ignore it. Which is partially why this is no where near a priority to me right now. It gets annoying hearing the same responses and nobody willing to engage or discuss.

[ThePenciledOne]

I'll be interested to see where this thread goes as well.

[Nihil Obstat]

Does anyone have Patristic sources that could be used for one side or the other? I consider those the best sources of any unless it's spelled out in the Bible.

[N/A Gone]

Dr. Boyd is working on a project right now. The problem is the theology is co-dependant on your view of time and the early Church did not have a developed sense of time outside of basic platonic concepts.