Twenty One Reasons Why Statism Is A Radical And Radically Incoherent T

[Apotheoun]

Who would be stupid enough to put his trust in an Agriculture Commissioner?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='22 May 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1274545162' post='2115383']
Well there's definitely a large difference in degree, but what about in principle? Would you agree or disagree that your government and mine do at least some things which are, in principal, tyrannical?
[/quote]

Certain actions can be considered unjust, but over all compared to true tyrannical governments both our governments are a source of good. Right now the unjust actions of our governments can still be changed through peaceful actions within the law, without resorting to overthrow or destruction of government.

Edited May 23, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Catholic Fox]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 May 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1274567956' post='2115543']
Who would be stupid enough to put his trust in an Agriculture Commissioner?
[/quote]

Those involved in agriculture, I'd assume.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='22 May 2010 - 06:15 PM' timestamp='1274566525' post='2115530']
"Put not your trust in princes, in the children of men, in whom there is no help."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Because as it goes on salvation is not found in princes but God alone. This however does not make the prince's God given authority null and void.

As Pope Leo XIII states in his Encyclical Immortale Dei,

It is not difficult to determine what would be the form and character of the State were it governed according to the principles of Christian philosophy. Man's natural instinct moves him to live in civil society, for he cannot, if dwelling apart, provide himself with the necessary requirements of life, nor procure the means of developing his mental and moral faculties. Hence it is divinely ordained that he should lead his life, be it family, social, or civil, with his fellow-men, amongst whom alone his several wants can be adequately supplied. But as no society can hold together unless someone be over all, directing all to strive earnestly for the cornmon good, every civilized community must have a ruling authority, and this authority, no less than society itself, has its source in nature, and has consequently God for its author. Hence it follows that all public power must proceed from God. For God alone is the true and supreme Lord of the world. Everything without exception must be subject to Him, and must serve Him, so that whosoever holds the right to govern, holds it from one sole and single source, namely God, the Sovereign Ruler of all. 'There is no power but from God.'

Edited May 23, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='22 May 2010 - 07:43 PM' timestamp='1274575409' post='2115625']
Because as it goes on salvation is not found in princes but God alone. This however does not make the prince's God given authority null and void.

As Pope Leo XIII states in his Encyclical Immortale Dei,

It is not difficult to determine what would be the form and character of the State were it governed according to the principles of Christian philosophy. Man's natural instinct moves him to live in civil society, for he cannot, if dwelling apart, provide himself with the necessary requirements of life, nor procure the means of developing his mental and moral faculties. Hence it is divinely ordained that he should lead his life, be it family, social, or civil, with his fellow-men, amongst whom alone his several wants can be adequately supplied. But as no society can hold together unless someone be over all, directing all to strive earnestly for the cornmon good, every civilized community must have a ruling authority, and this authority, no less than society itself, has its source in nature, and has consequently God for its author. Hence it follows that all public power must proceed from God. For God alone is the true and supreme Lord of the world. Everything without exception must be subject to Him, and must serve Him, so that whosoever holds the right to govern, holds it from one sole and single source, namely God, the Sovereign Ruler of all. 'There is no power but from God.'
[/quote]

All power does come from God. And goes directly to individuals, who then abuse it by establishing princes. God does not pluck kings from mothers' wombs. Power does not flow from God directly into individual-created collectives. Nor does "power" equal the right to do something that no one else has the right to do.

I've said that I agreed with Father Fagothey's definition of a "state."I've said I'm all in favor of being subject to authority. That I support order. And justice. You and I simply disagree on the means by which order and justice actually emanate and are effectively preserved. The Church is in favor of any governmental system whereby men can successfully and freely reach their just temporal ends. The Church does not say which system (especially an organic system, I will add) is morally required to achieve those goals.

Knight, I know you think that the Church speaks for you through these snippets, but I really get the impression that you're unable to discuss the underlying reasoning and nuances. You seldom clarify any questions I have about the texts you post, leading me to believe you don't really understand them yourself. You wield those quotations like a crushing club, not like a truth-illustrating paintbrush.

Until you're willing to engage the points I am making, instead of going around the internet finding stuff that you [incorrectly] think crushes my arguments, I'd rather you ignore my posts.

~Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='23 May 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1274649123' post='2116094']
All power does come from God. And goes directly to individuals, who then abuse it by establishing princes. [/quote]

God sets up kings, no king becomes king without God making him king. Or ruler, or president.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='23 May 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1274649123' post='2116094']God does not pluck kings from mothers' wombs. Power does not flow from God directly into individual-created collectives. [/quote]

God has chosen some leaders from the womb. Power flows from God to the establishment of the State and it's rulers.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='23 May 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1274649123' post='2116094']Nor does "power" equal the right to do something that no one else has the right to do. [/quote]

That power doesn't equal the right to do something immoral. But some powers belong to the State or the leader alone. Like a father has powers that his child does not.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='23 May 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1274649123' post='2116094']I've said that I agreed with Father Fagothey's definition of a "state."I've said I'm all in favor of being subject to authority. That I support order. And justice. You and I simply disagree on the means by which order and justice actually emanate and are effectively preserved. [/quote]

I know from many past debates with you, you reject the 'order' of most if not all States that existed through out time which the Church has supported. You reject the order of Kings, the Church supports the order or power of Kings to rule. The Church even supports local law enforcement which can fine citizens with tickets, and arrest. You seem to have a problem with that, the Church doesn't.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='23 May 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1274649123' post='2116094']The Church is in favor of any governmental system whereby men can successfully and freely reach their just temporal ends. The Church does not say which system (especially an organic system, I will add) is morally required to achieve those goals.[/quote]

"No society can hold together unless someone [b]be over all[/b], directing all to strive earnestly for the cornmon good, every civilized community must have a ruling authority, and this authority, no less than society itself, has its source in nature, and has consequently God for its author."

Also the Church does support the coercive powers of the State to enforce law on law breakers, which you reject.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='23 May 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1274649123' post='2116094']Knight, I know you think that the Church speaks for you through these snippets, but I really get the impression that you're unable to discuss the underlying reasoning and nuances. You seldom clarify any questions I have about the texts you post, leading me to believe you don't really understand them yourself. You wield those quotations like a crushing club, not like a truth-illustrating paintbrush. [/quote]

I'm sorry I've forgotten, you don't think Encyclicals are binding on the faithful just like the CCC. You often fail to provide any source of 'quotations' or proof to back up your argument. And when you do you must twist it into something that is far from the original meaning. Such as the time we debate a citizens duty to pay taxes, "give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

Edited May 24, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Winchester]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 May 2010 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1274567956' post='2115543']
Who would be stupid enough to put his trust in an Agriculture Commissioner?
[/quote]
The Batman of Agriculture.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='23 May 2010 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1274661083' post='2116218']
God sets up kings, no king becomes king without God making him king. Or ruler, or president.[/quote]

That does not mean that is God's direct will. Necessarily, it only means that it is at least his indirect will.



[quote]God has chosen some leaders from the womb. Power flows from God to the establishment of the State and it's rulers.[/quote]

Who are some leaders God chose from the womb? Besides religious leaders? And Jesus?


[quote]
That power doesn't equal the right to do something immoral. But some powers belong to the State or the leader alone. Like a father has powers that his child does not.
[/quote]

What exclusive rights does the State have that individuals do not? And what is the direct source (not ultimate source) of those rights?

[quote]
I know from many past debates with you, you reject the 'order' of most if not all States that existed through out time which the Church has supported. You reject the order of Kings, the Church supports the order or power of Kings to rule. The Church even supports local law enforcement which can fine citizens with tickets, and arrest. You seem to have a problem with that, the Church doesn't. [/quote]

Did the Church also support States that tortured people and coerced their wills to recant heresies?

[quote]"No society can hold together unless someone [b]be over all[/b], directing all to strive earnestly for the cornmon good, every civilized community must have a ruling authority, and this authority, no less than society itself, has its source in nature, and has consequently God for its author."[/quote]

Can that someone be God, as was desired by God in 1 Samuel 8?

[quote]Also the Church does support the coercive powers of the State to enforce law on law breakers, which you reject.[/quote]

If the State is the one defined by Fr. Fagothey, and never defined by you, then I support the use of force (not coercion) to uphold the rights of men to life, liberty and property.


[quote]I'm sorry I've forgotten, you don't think Encyclicals are binding on the faithful just like the CCC. You often fail to provide any source of 'quotations' or proof to back up your argument. And when you do you must twist it into something that is far from the original meaning. Such as the time we debate a citizens duty to pay taxes, "give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."
[/quote]

"As for the binding force of these documents it is generally admitted that the mere fact that the Pope should have given to any of his utterances the form of an encyclical does not necessarily constitute it an ex-cathedra pronouncement and invest it with infallible authority. The degree in which the infallible magisterium of the Holy See is committed must be judged from the circumstances, and from the language used in the particular case." [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05413a.htm"]http://www.newadvent...then/05413a.htm[/url]

What, precisely, did Jesus say belonged to Caesar? [url="http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/barr-j1.1.1.html"]"Render unto Caesar."[/url]

~Sternhauser

Edited May 24, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1274700128' post='2116472']
That does not mean that is God's direct will. Necessarily, it only means that it is at least his indirect will. [/quote]

Scripture speaks of God setting up kings, not allowing them to become king. His setting up kings and taking them down is His direct will, because setting up is an direct action rather than permitting, or allowing.



[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1274700128' post='2116472']Who are some leaders God chose from the womb? Besides religious leaders? And Jesus? [/quote]

I would have named a few biblical names but you don't want those I guess. God creates each of us with a purpose and does in fact set up kings with His direct will so any just king is chosen from birth. Which is why the Church through out time supported crowning the son of a King. God knows us before He even forms us in the womb and has a plain for our lives. We may chose to follow it or rebel against it.




[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1274700128' post='2116472']What exclusive rights does the State have that individuals do not? And what is the direct source (not ultimate source) of those rights? [/quote]

The right to wage war, to impose taxes, to make law, to enforce law, and to arrest law breakers. Things of this nature.


[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1274700128' post='2116472']Did the Church also support States that tortured people and coerced their wills to recant heresies? [/quote]

No, and you know She does not, but She does in fact support the States right to us coercion and so does St. Paul.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1274700128' post='2116472']Can that someone be God, as was desired by God in 1 Samuel 8? [/quote]

God is over all, but He then sits up leaders who rule over others, they derive their authority from His authority.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1274700128' post='2116472']If the State is the one defined by Fr. Fagothey, and never defined by you, then I support the use of force (not coercion) to uphold the rights of men to life, liberty and property. [/quote]

I support the Church's support of any just State, that includes Kings and Queens, which you do not.


[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1274700128' post='2116472']"As for the binding force of these documents it is generally admitted that the mere fact that the Pope should have given to any of his utterances the form of an encyclical does not necessarily constitute it an ex-cathedra pronouncement and invest it with infallible authority. The degree in which the infallible magisterium of the Holy See is committed must be judged from the circumstances, and from the language used in the particular case." [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05413a.htm"]http://www.newadvent...then/05413a.htm[/url][/quote]

It is an heretical belief to believe that just because something is not ex-cathedra means that it is not binding upon the faithful. Encyclicals and the CCC are binding on the faithful, end of story.


[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1274700128' post='2116472']What, precisely, did Jesus say belonged to Caesar? [url="http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/barr-j1.1.1.html"]"Render unto Caesar."[/url]
[/quote]

So ultimately Catholics do not have to pay taxes. Someone should have told Pope John XXIII

"In a system of taxation based on justice and equity it is fundamental that the burdens be proportioned to the capacity of the people contributing."

And Pope Leo XIII

"Now a State chiefly prospers and thrives through moral rule, well-regulated family life, respect for religion and justice, the moderation and fair imposing of public taxes, the progress of the arts and of trade, the abundant yield of the land -- through everything, in fact, which makes the citizens better and happier."

And Pope Paul IV

"Government officials, it is your concern to mobilize your peoples to form a more effective world solidarity, and above all to [b]make them accept the necessary taxes[/b] on their luxuries and their wasteful expenditures, in order to bring about development and to save the peace."

And Pope Pius XII

"The Church has always impressed on the minds of her children that declaration of the Divine Redeemer: "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."[5] We call it a declaration because these words make certain and incontestable the principle that Christianity never opposes or obstructs what is truly useful or advantageous to a country."

And the CCC 2400

“Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country: Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.”

Edited May 24, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 May 2010 - 11:37 AM' timestamp='1274719046' post='2116558']
Scripture speaks of God setting up kings, not allowing them to become king. His setting up kings and taking them down is His direct will, because setting up is an direct action rather than permitting, or allowing.[/quote]

Scripture speaks of God hardening Pharaoh's heart, too.


[quote]God is over all, but He then sits up leaders who rule over others, they derive their authority from His authority.[/quote]

Can you describe this "setting up" process?



[quote]
It is an heretical belief to believe that just because something is not ex-cathedra means that it is not binding upon the faithful. Encyclicals and the CCC are binding on the faithful, end of story.
[/quote]

Knight, you continue to misconstrue my statements. Stop. It is intellectually dishonest and uncharitable. I never said that a teaching has to be ex cathedra to be binding upon the faithful. It [i]does[/i] have to be an [b]infallible teaching[/b] to bind under pain of grave sin, and not all Encyclicals are infallible. So just stop it.

[quote]So ultimately Catholics do not have to pay taxes. Someone should have told Pope John XXIII[/quote]

Oh, they should pay money to anyone who has a gun against their head. I wouldn't, on the other hand, say that Jesus said any money [i]belongs[/i] or is [i]due[/i] Caesar.

[quote]"The Church has always impressed on the minds of her children that declaration of the Divine Redeemer: "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."[5] We call it a declaration because these words make certain and incontestable the principle that Christianity never opposes or obstructs [b]what is truly useful or advantageous to a country[/b]."[/quote]

Key phrase emboldened.

Knight, I do wish you would put me on ignore. I thought you said you had already done that, once upon a time.

~Sternhauser

Edited May 25, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1274745425' post='2116811']
Scripture speaks of God hardening Pharaoh's heart, too. [/quote]

He also took away the Kingship of Nebuchadnezzar, and later returned it to him.


[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1274745425' post='2116811']Can you describe this "setting up" process? [/quote]

I do not know the mind of God, I only trust His word that He does set up Kings or Rulers and that they derive power and authority from Him.


[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1274745425' post='2116811']Knight, you continue to misconstrue my statements. Stop. It is intellectually dishonest. I never said that a teaching has to be ex cathedra to be binding upon the faithful. It [i]does[/i] have to be an [b]infallible teaching[/b] to bind under pain of grave sin, and not all Encyclicals are infallible. So just stop it.[/quote]

The CCC and Encyclicals have authority and are binding on the faithful, I know you've rejected their authority. If you like so or not both are authoritative and binding on the faithful.


[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1274745425' post='2116811']Oh, they should pay money to anyone who has a gun against their head. I wouldn't, on the other hand, say that Jesus said any money [i]belongs[/i] or is [i]due[/i] Caesar. [/quote]

You always have the best hyperboles.



[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1274745425' post='2116811']Key phrase emboldened.
[/quote]

Why does the emboldened matter? Unless now you agree the state has the right to enforce taxation.

Edited May 25, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 May 2010 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1274746658' post='2116830']
Why does the emboldened matter?
[/quote]

It begs the question if taxation is truly useful or advantageous.

~Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1274747727' post='2116843']
It begs the question if taxation is truly useful or advantageous.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Only if its meaning is distorted to make that claim. Rather it points out that taxes should be paid to just States that impose just taxation. And base on the context of the sources I've provided the Church believes such states and taxation exist.

And no matter how much the question my beg you it matters not if you reject the states right to impose taxes in the first place, which clearly you have been.

Edited May 25, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 May 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1274748166' post='2116848']
Only if its meaning is distorted to make that claim. Rather it points out that taxes should be paid to just States that impose just taxation. And base on the context of the sources I've provided the Church believes such states and taxation exist.

And no matter how much the question my beg you it matters not if you reject the states right to impose taxes in the first place, which clearly you have been.
[/quote]

But you don't even know what the State is, so it's kind of pointless.

~Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1274748296' post='2116851']
But you don't even know what the State is, so it's kind of pointless.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

In our case if you are living in the United States, it is The United States Government, as well as the State you live in. For someone in Canada it is Canadian Government and whatever province they live in. For someone living in France in the late 1200's the State was the monarchy of King Louis VIII.