Thumb's Down: Mass. Church To Help Find School For Gays' Son

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='18 May 2010 - 11:13 PM' timestamp='1274242393' post='2113436']
It should not be viewed as a punishment, but as a preemptive defense against the inevitable lawsuits that are sure to come. (I'll explain in a moment, keep reading)



Yes, but all of these examples you present are of [i]truly repentant sinners[/i]. Jesus did not eat with [i]unrepentant[/i] prostitutes, He did not eat with [i]fraudulent[/i] tax collectors; in fact Jesus violently rebuked real sinners and [i]and chased them out of His Father's House with a whip of chords[/i]! (John 2:15 or there abouts).



This is where I see lawsuits popping up like daisies. Homosexuals do not exactly have a good track record of NOT suing people or organizations that speak out against them. I sincerely believe that as soon as 'junior' comes home talking about what he learned of daddy A's and daddy B's immoral lifestyle; they will be on the phone to their attorney and the media stations faster than you can say "Proposition 8". If these people truly had any interest at all in a Catholic education then they would have reformed their lives to be more in line with Catholic teaching. Essentially they are saying to God, "I accept your will, Lord, but I will accept it on MY terms. Not yours." When we are all called to say to God, "I accept you will, Lord, and I will accept it on YOUR terms."




It defends the image of the Roman Catholic Church as an unbending pillar of truth, that does will not comprise its Truth for the sake of what is publicly popular.
[/quote]
Great to know you can make "sincere" accusations about people you don't even know anything about. How christian of you.

[Vincent Vega]

I can't tell if you're just a troll or if you're genuinely the product of the American catechetical system of the past 40/50 years. I hope to God it's the former.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='19 May 2010 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1274246272' post='2113467']
I can't tell if you're just a troll or if you're genuinely the product of the American catechetical system of the past 40/50 years. I hope to God it's the former.
[/quote]
Dude you're in high school, don't lecture me about American systems.

I'm sorry I piss in everyone's cornflakes when I retort about the supposed ironfisted beliefs of the Church and Jesus.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='19 May 2010 - 12:49 PM' timestamp='1274298552' post='2113750']
Dude you're in high school, don't lecture me about American systems.

I'm sorry I piss in everyone's cornflakes when I retort about the supposed ironfisted beliefs of the Church and Jesus.
[/quote]
i can't figure you out

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='XIX' date='18 May 2010 - 08:58 AM' timestamp='1274183881' post='2112686']
I'll just say this: punishing the kids for the sins of their parents is quite puzzling to me. Punishing anyone by denying them a Catholic education is warranted if they have done something to deserve expulsion, for example. But to punish Person A because Daddy A and Mommy B are not following Church teaching? I don't get it.

Jesus ate with tax collectors, absolved & befriended a prostitute, called Judas to be an apostle, called Peter to be his first Pope [i]after [/i]he denied Christ three times, healed on the Sabbath, and died a torturous death in public. Any one of these things can be interpreted by the haters as a chance to smear Christ's name, and they often took that chance. Nevertheless, He kept doing these things because it was the right thing to do.

Will it be awkward and even hurtful when the boy has to learn about the sixth commandment? Of course it will. But it's our job to promote Church teaching, even when it inevitably makes other people get squirmy. Better to get conflicting ideas tan to get a consistent message that gay relationships are okay. Besides, being exposed to Church teaching will help the boy see past a lot of the strawman arguments (The Church hates gay people, the Church condemns all gay people to Hell, etc. etc.) It's awkward, but it's better than not being exposed to Church teaching.
[/quote]
The school is not punishing anyone, they are standing up for the teachings of the Church. The parents are punishing a child by living in an immoral sinful relationship. Its up to the parents to remedy the situation, NOT THE SCHOOL.

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='19 May 2010 - 12:57 PM' timestamp='1274299030' post='2113753']
The school is not punishing anyone, they are standing up for the teachings of the Church. The parents are punishing a child by living in an immoral sinful relationship. Its up to the parents to remedy the situation, NOT THE SCHOOL.
[/quote]

I agree; a Catholic education starts at home, not the classroom.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='19 May 2010 - 01:58 AM' timestamp='1274245126' post='2113460']
Great to know you can make "sincere" accusations about people you don't even know anything about. How christian of you.
[/quote]
Pointing out the truth to you IS christian behavior.

[Socrates]

[quote name='rhetoricfemme' date='18 May 2010 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1274218255' post='2113085']
Fair enough, I can't argue with that.


I suppose the problem I have is with other individuals not bothering to learn the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. People like to take a headline, or something they heard another person say and then just run with it, whether or not they're correct.[/quote]
For the most part, it's the "mainstream" media and those who insist on referring to the sex scandals in the Church as "pedophilia" and insisting it has nothing whatever to do with homosexuality that are guilty of this, when the truth is that most of the abuse did not involve true pedophilia (sex with pre-pubescent children).
The word "pedophilia" is almost exclusively used in most headlines.

[quote]I could care less about what is or isn't politically correct. If the church abuse had something to do with homosexuality, then okay. It is what it is. But if pedophilia was also involved, then eventually it just happens that one gets associated with the other. Which I already mentioned I take issue with.[/quote]
Since 81% of the abuse involved boys, rather than girls, I think it's hard to honestly say outright that the abuse had nothing to do with homosexuality. Pederasty between a grown men and adolescent boys has historically been the most common form of homosexual activity.
I'm not sure there's really such a clear-cut line between where "homosexuality" and "pedophilia" anyways. A preference for young "partners" has always been fairly common among homosexuals, and much as people may quibble, I'm not sure there's really such a clear-cut line between where "pedophilia" ends and "homosexuality" begins. Both are gravely disordered and immoral forms of behavior which should be opposed by the Catholic.
Since the young victims here were overwhelmingly male, an association with homosexuality is not unreasonable.

[quote]And I do care about ignorant and tasteless jokes. About priests, disabled people, racial jokes, etc. Perhaps I just have a weak sense of humor. I don't even like blonde jokes.

And no, I'm not insinuating that homosexual priests paint a sadder picture than pedophile priests.
[/quote]
The truth should not be avoided for fear of jokes. And, I'm sorry, but I'm really not understanding your point here.

And I like blonde jokes.


[quote]It is a shame that children learn about anything of a sexual nature at such an age, yes. And while I understand the need to protect a Catholic school's choice in accepting or denying students on a basis of someone choosing to live in their sins, I don't think the child is the one who needs to suffer for it.

If the parents are known to be in an active homosexual relationship, then perhaps upon enrollment of the child, they should be made aware that neither the school nor the church is going to make special accommodations to insinuate that the act of homosexuality is accepted. Church teaching is church teaching, and this is a church school.

Actually, the child is going to suffer regardless of what the school's decision is. If the child isn't allowed to attend the Catholic school, then he or she is being denied a (hopefully) solid Catholic education that should be a safe place to grow in their faith. When the times comes, they would learn that homosexuality does not jive with the Church, and while this is likely to be a confusing and possibly hurtful time, it is the truth. The truth sometimes hurts. But as I originally stated, what if this child is supposed to be a beacon for for their parents to come to Christ the right way?

While it's not fair for the parents to put their child in such a position, I'm not going to assume they're being ignorant or trying to force the Catholic school to, "be more accepting of peoples' differences." I make no assumptions about their intentions. For all I know, it's a cry for help from the parents. I'm not saying that justifies anything they're doing, but it's just a suggestion.

There is no reason that the issue of gay parents needs to be handled maliciously. There is room for honesty, love and discipline here. And if the parents are trying to enroll their child in a Catholic school, and that child grows in their Catholic faith, what else could the parents expect than to one day hear from their child questions about their marriage?

The alternative is for the child to be denied admittance to the Catholic school, where they may be left to wonder what they did wrong that the school of their chosen faith has told them they cannot attend. To me, that seems like a much deeper brand of hurt to recover from.[/quote]
It's interesting how you refuse to make assumptions about the intentions of the homosexual "parents," yet seem to assume the very worst about the school and its intentions, and accuse them of handling this case "maliciously."
Saint of Virtue makes some very good points in this thread, and Micah (who actually works in Catholic education) has made some excellent points in a thread on a similar topic.
Is it entirely unreasonable for the school to wish to avoid spending huge amounts of resources and time on the almost inevitable expensive legal and media battles, which would be better spent in educating the children? The good of the school and students as a whole needs to be considered here, not simply the one child in question.
If the parents in this case were truly interested in educating their child in Catholic truth and morality, they would change their immoral lifestyle. Education should be a cooperation between the parents and the school, and this case the cooperation simply does not exist.

While you insist on taking a "non-judgmental" stance toward the homosexual parents, you and others here are in fact being rather harshly judgmental on the school administrators, on a case we do not in fact have all the facts about - simply a media report, which is not necessarily without bias.

[rhetoricfemme]

[quote name='Socrates' date='20 May 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1274376766' post='2114233']
Since 81% of the abuse involved boys, rather than girls, I think it's hard to honestly say outright that the abuse had nothing to do with homosexuality. Pederasty between a grown men and adolescent boys has historically been the most common form of homosexual activity.
I'm not sure there's really such a clear-cut line between where "homosexuality" and "pedophilia" anyways. A preference for young "partners" has always been fairly common among homosexuals, and much as people may quibble, I'm not sure there's really such a clear-cut line between where "pedophilia" ends and "homosexuality" begins. Both are gravely disordered and immoral forms of behavior which should be opposed by the Catholic.
Since the young victims here were overwhelmingly male, an association with homosexuality is not unreasonable.
[/quote]
I'll never be a man with homosexual tendencies, so I'll never be able to say for sure. But I have a feeling that there is a line between homosexuality and pedophilia. I'm sure for the gay men that are disgusted by the concept of pursuing adolescent boys, it's not simply common sense to stay away from them, but also a lack of desire to be with them. And why then, are there not just as many lesbians going after young girls? Gay pedophiles exist, sure. But I don't think the two issues are necessarily linked.

[quote]The truth should not be avoided for fear of jokes. And, I'm sorry, but I'm really not understanding your point here.

And I like blonde jokes.
[/quote]
I wasn't making a point with this comment so much as responding to your question, "And who cares if people make ignorant jokes?"

[quote]
It's interesting how you refuse to make assumptions about the intentions of the homosexual "parents," yet seem to assume the very worst about the school and its intentions, and accuse them of handling this case "maliciously."
[/quote]
Perhaps I should have clarified better, for the paragraph in which I use the world "maliciously" didn't pertain to the specific gay parents that this thread was talking about.
[quote]
There is no reason that the [b]issue of gay parents needs to be handled maliciously[/b]. There is room for honesty, love and discipline here. And if the parents are trying to enroll their child in a Catholic school, and that child grows in their Catholic faith, what else could the parents expect than to one day hear from their child questions about their marriage?
[/quote]
I'm sorry for the misconception, I can see how it just blends in when most of the rest of the content is about the couple that the thread is specifically talking about. For the record, I don't necessarily believe that their particular incident was handled, "maliciously." But that's not to say that I think the child should still be barred from attending a Catholic school. Like I said, I think the parents should be made aware at the time of potential enrollment that a Catholic institution is going to give a Catholic education and won't make special accommodations for the feelings of their child.

Now, I don't think that, "not making special accommodations," means that the child should expect the hear cruel jokes, be looked down upon by other students or whatever. I think that part of Catholic education should be the teaching of love, humility and charity, and if there is ever a time when homosexuality is discussed in the (hopefully) age-appropriate classrooms, that it also be mentioned that the commonly cruel treatment of homosexual people is not encouraged in the Catholic community.

I'm not making assumptions that this school or any specific school, organization or person is being malicious or hateful. But it'd be ignorant to pretend that that sort of treatment doesn't exist. It's not a Catholic problem, no. But that doesn't exclude the problem from showing up in Catholic schools or families as well. And I think the Catholic community has a responsibility to show charity here. That doesn't mean supporting homosexual relationships. Rather, it means lovingly preaching the truth about such relationships. Now, if people interpret that message as closed-minded or whatever, then that's their problem.

[quote]Is it entirely unreasonable for the school to wish to avoid spending huge amounts of resources and time on the almost inevitable expensive legal and media battles, which would be better spent in educating the children? The good of the school and students as a whole needs to be considered here, not simply the one child in question.[/quote]
No, it's not unreasonable. And seeing as how the Catholic school is a private institution and does still reserve the right to choose its students, what grounds would there be for a lawsuit? They shouldn't have anything to be afraid of. Still, I realize that wouldn't necessarily keep some folks from pursuing such a lawsuit...

My above response about being loving, truthful and charitable is pretty much my answer about educating children. I can elaborate if you need.

[quote]If the parents in this case were truly interested in educating their child in Catholic truth and morality, they would change their immoral lifestyle. Education should be a cooperation between the parents and the school, and this case the cooperation simply does not exist.[/quote]
Fair enough. Still, what if the parents don't feel they're in the wrong? As I said in the beginning, what if their child is meant to help guide them toward the Truth?

[quote]While you insist on taking a "non-judgmental" stance toward the homosexual parents, you and others here are in fact being rather harshly judgmental on the school administrators, on a case we do not in fact have all the facts about - simply a media report, which is not necessarily without bias.
[/quote]
I'm not being harshly judgmental on the school administrators. You're right that we don't have all the facts about this case. Which is why I feel like we can't assume to know the parents' true intentions on this. And I fail to see how my trying to explain why I feel the student should be allowed to attend is the same as me being, "harshly judgmental," toward the school administrators.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rhetoricfemme' date='20 May 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1274389700' post='2114367']
I'll never be a man with homosexual tendencies, so I'll never be able to say for sure. But I have a feeling that there is a line between homosexuality and pedophilia.
[/quote]
Homosexuality and pedophilia are both disordered conditions that must be overcome by willed effort assisted by divine grace.

[Lilllabettt]

;.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Lilllabettt

[Maggyie]

This is a very lousy thing to have happen. For one thing it makes it look like the Church is discriminating big time against the child. At many Catholic schools there are Catholic children whose "Catholic" parents are divorced and remarried without annulment, divorced and shacking up, married and using birth control, etc. If we are going to start policing the morality of parents (as opposed to the morality of the students which is ABSOLUTELY what we need to be doing) then all the parents have to be under the microscope, not just those who are homosexual. What needs to happen in this situation is for the school to have a strong, orthodox and compulsory theology/Christian morality program that has an emphasis on evangelization. And the homosexual parents need to be told firmly that their child is going to be charitably and fully taught what the Church teaches about sexuality and will not be allowed to be exempt. And then the school should follow through. What a great way for the kid to learn the truth about sexuality (which he is not going to get at home OR at the alternative school most likely)

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Maggie' date='20 May 2010 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1274392285' post='2114406']
This is a very lousy thing to have happen. For one thing it makes it look like the Church is discriminating big time against the child. At many Catholic schools there are Catholic children whose "Catholic" parents are divorced and remarried without annulment, divorced and shacking up, married and using birth control, etc. If we are going to start policing the morality of parents (as opposed to the morality of the students which is ABSOLUTELY what we need to be doing) then all the parents have to be under the microscope, not just those who are homosexual. [/quote]

But it does not take a microscope to see that two openly lesbian "moms" are in defiance of Church teaching. It would take a microscope (and a peek in people's medicine cabinets) to see if they use ABC. Now, if the heterosexual couple were openly defiant, I would not want them in school either.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='20 May 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1274392773' post='2114407']
But it does not take a microscope to see that two openly lesbian "moms" are in defiance of Church teaching. It would take a microscope (and a peek in people's medicine cabinets) to see if they use ABC. Now, if the heterosexual couple were openly defiant, I would not want them in school either.
[/quote]
So very true. Both of the Catholic high schools I worked at interviewed parents and students prior to admission, and I have no doubt that they would not have given admission to any student / family that would - by their public actions and avowed lifestyle - cause a scandal among the members of the community and the parishes connected to the schools.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Maggyie]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='20 May 2010 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1274392773' post='2114407']
But it does not take a microscope to see that two openly lesbian "moms" are in defiance of Church teaching. It would take a microscope (and a peek in people's medicine cabinets) to see if they use ABC. Now, if the heterosexual couple were openly defiant, I would not want them in school either.
[/quote]

How do we know that really? They could be living in a chaste relationship. Yeah, right. But the truth is we don't know for sure whether someone is sinning sexually or not unless they admit to it or we catch them in the act. The Church isn't interested in finding out if Johnny's mommy and her beau are sleeping together or not, although they have the same address, emergency contact number and they both come to all the school events.

In one of our local Catholic schools, the little girl lived with her grandparents and the grandfather was a notorious drunk, and he would even show up on school property wasted. The family was a mess. He was living in as open defiance as you can get. Should they have thrown that little girl out of the school? This was a very elitist, wealthy school so I could see it happening, and if it had I would have wanted to burn the place down.

The child isn't sinning here. There's nothing the child can do about grandpa's alcoholism or mom's sexual choices. The child's experience of the Church is going to be one of rejection. This is not "standing up for the Church's teaching," this is keeping the dirty sinners away so their sin and their family's sins won't rub off on our nice pure orthodox Catholic children.