"traditional" Versus "orthodox" Roman Catholic

[Bennn]

I believe that many mistakes have been made in the reform of the Mass, but I do consider them licit, valid and safe if the reformed Liturgy is celebrated in the spirit of the Church and her Tradition. That does not take away that the reformed ordo of the Mass opens the door wide for all kinds of liturgical abuse and many of the innovations obviously damaged the sacral dimension of the Holy Mass and were aimed at pleasing the Protestants. I do however blindly submit to Vatican II and do believe that a reform was necessary, but that they have exaggerated way too much while implementing it.

A revision of the liturgical books, like Vatican II stated, would have been nice. But rewriting the whole Liturgy, the way it happened after the Council was not good.

I think that is a healthy traditionalism within orthodoxy.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='14 May 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1273875503' post='2110791']
Just remember that there are some traditionalists who believe that if you aren't a traditionalist, then you can't be orthodox. That can keep a non-traditionalist quiet for fear of getting stomped on.
[/quote]


[quote name='Socrates' date='14 May 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1273877117' post='2110809']
Like others have said, "orthodox" (little "o") refers to those who agree fully with the magisterial teachings of the Church on matters of faith and morals.
"Traditional" refers to practicing or preferring older, traditional forms of Catholic worship (such as the old Latin mass).

Not all orthodox Catholics are traditionalists, and not all traditionalists are orthodox (though most would claim to be).

"Traditional" or "traditionalist" is itself a somewhat imprecise term, which can cover a wide spectrum, ranging from people who simply resist common forms of modern liturgical silliness and abuse and want a return to reverent worship, to crazy and extreme schismatic or heretical groups who reject contemporary Church leadership entirely. More extreme traditionalists are commonly known as "rad trads" (for "radical traditionalists.")

Some might consider me a "trad" because I'm currently a member of a traditionalist parish and attend TLM.
However, I don't have a problem with the NO mass if said properly and reverently (which in many places it is not).
Liberals would consider me an extreme traditionalist, while "rad trads" would probably consider me a damnable "neo-Catholic" modernist heretic.
[/quote]

Yeah, this part I had already figured out. As with most kinds of beliefs (not just religious ones), there is a range, a spectrum, and there is always going to be SOMEONE out there who can't accept anyone who isn't exactly on the same point of the spectrum as they are, no matter what the issue is--religious or not. So, you either debate, and often waste a lot of time, because many people's views (at least on particular subjects) aren't going to change no matter what anyone says, or you keep your mouth shut, figuring that it's easier to "keep the peace" and concentrate on the things you DO have in common.

That's not just Phatmass--that's the way the people are. Sooner or later most of us find a way to deal with this in a mature way, but also occasionally mess up. That's why I like knowing where people stand. It makes it easier to decide how I'm going to respond. And, I'm no saint, I have "hot button" issues that are going to rile me up, or where I can't imagine compromising. I'm better than I used to be, but I have a ways to go. So, I can't condemn others too loudly for being "closed minded" when I am the same way sometimes.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 May 2010 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1273872374' post='2110764']
An orthodox Catholic is one who assents to all the teachings of the Catholic Church.

A traditional Catholic is one who prefers the traditional Roman Liturgy and considers it superior to the Novus Ordo.
[/quote]

You can be a traditional Catholic without considering the [i]Forma Extraordinaria[/i] superior to the [i]Novus Ordo[/i].

I prefer the traditional liturgy to the ordinary form, however I do not see it as superior to the novus ordo.

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='14 May 2010 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1273874356' post='2110781']
I think this is a good way of summing it up too
[/quote]

See my above reply. I think it is way too specific.

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='14 May 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1273875482' post='2110790']
Yes, I definitely agree. I think Resurrexi's explanation was excellent. It was concise and easy to understand, without "talking down" to the audience.

I would have given Rexi a +1 on his post if I had one right now. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif[/img]
[/quote]

The problem is a traditional Catholic isn't that simple to describe. Traditional isn't limited to or dependent on liturgical preference. As a matter of fact I'd warrant to say that you can be a traditional Catholic while preferring the Novus Ordo. There are many many options in the Novus Ordo and there are definitely more traditional leaning options (entirely Latin Liturgy, ad orientem with incense the altar boys wearing cassocks, the priest wearing a cassock and biretta, communion under one species or intinction). There are also more traditional practices of prayer (St's. Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross) then the more modern things such as charismatic prayer.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Slappo' date='14 May 2010 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1273878842' post='2110827']
You can be a traditional Catholic without considering the [i]Forma Extraordinaria[/i] superior to the [i]Novus Ordo[/i].

I prefer the traditional liturgy to the ordinary form, however I do not see it as superior to the novus ordo.



See my above reply. I think it is way too specific.



The problem is a traditional Catholic isn't that simple to describe. Traditional isn't limited to or dependent on liturgical preference. As a matter of fact I'd warrant to say that you can be a traditional Catholic while preferring the Novus Ordo. There are many many options in the Novus Ordo and there are definitely more traditional leaning options (entirely Latin Liturgy, ad orientem with incense the altar boys wearing cassocks, the priest wearing a cassock and biretta, communion under one species or intinction). There are also more traditional practices of prayer (St's. Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross) then the more modern things such as charismatic prayer.
[/quote]

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif[/img] Great, Just when I thought I had this concept vaguely figured out, you go ahead and make it more complicated. However, your points are good ones, and I'm glad you brought them up.

It looks like my effort to try find a simple way to understand this concept was a pipe dream. But, I'm not surprised. Very few philosophical/religious issues can be explained in a way that is both concise AND completely correct.

Bottom line: I understand much more than I did when I started this thread, but, my goal of trying to use the correct terminology was probably unrealistic, at least for now. So, what else is new? If I didn't mess up, you (plural--meaning everyone) would lose the enjoyment of correcting my mistakes or making fun of me. I'd hate to deprive you. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif[/img]

P.S. I still like Rexi's answer, even if it doesn't cover every single circumstance or variation in points of view. It gave me an overall framework that helped me put all the exceptions, variations, etc in context.

[Apotheoun]

Why did someone give a negative point to Rexi's response?

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 May 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1273880564' post='2110836']
Why did someone give a negative point to Rexi's response?
[/quote]

Probably one of his many admirers. I fixed it.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Slappo' date='14 May 2010 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1273878842' post='2110827']
You can be a traditional Catholic without considering the [i]Forma Extraordinaria[/i] superior to the [i]Novus Ordo[/i].
[/quote]

I disagree.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 May 2010 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1273882904' post='2110857']
I disagree.
[/quote]
That's the Rexi we were expecting, and know and love.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='14 May 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1273881193' post='2110839']
Probably one of his many admirers. I fixed it.
[/quote]
Thank you.

[MithLuin]

Post Vatican II, 'traditional' has come to mean old-fashioned and throw-back. (To say the same thing as 'preferring the TLM' in a more negative way.) Meaning, the issues that traditional Catholics discuss are many that other Catholics don't even think about.

Your average Catholic under the age of 30 has never attended a traditional Latin mass and only knows about such things by reputation - regardless of how devout and/or orthodox this person might be. In the past few years, the Latin mass has become more available, so that may change, but it's still largely true.

The Latin mass is hardly the only topic that is associated with the 'traditional' point of view in the Catholic church today, but it is certainly the touchstone issue.


The general rule of thumb with labels is to use the labels that people use for themselves, and always recognize that there will be those individuals who defy the boxes you try to put them in, no matter how careful you are.

[Apotheoun]

What exactly is a non-traditional Catholic?

Paradosis in the Greek concerns "that which is handed on from generation to generation."

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='14 May 2010 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1273887261' post='2110897']
That's the Rexi we were expecting, and know and love.
[/quote]

I like both Rexi's. Shows flexibility and knowledge of his audience.

[MithLuin]

Your average Catholic who attends the local parish, prays with their family, receives the sacraments regularly and has a favorite saint is unlikely to identify themselves as a 'traditional Catholic.' Note that I am not suggesting the 'average Catholic' fits that description, either - I'm describing what your average Catholic might call a 'devout Catholic' but which other devout Catholics would call average. Is your head spinning yet? It's not that they're non-traditional, though. They are into a lot of the traditional Catholic stuff, and see no break with the Tradition of the Church. It's just that the issues that concern traditional Catholics don't often come across their radar.

Only a traditional Catholic is going to walk up to you and ask 'Are you a post-Vatican II Catholic or a pre-Vatican II Catholic?'

The label 'traditional Catholic' means something more specific than 'orthodox Catholic,' 'devout Catholic' or even just 'Catholic.' As [b]Rex[/b] stated above, practically by definition, a traditional Catholic has a preference for the TLM as opposed to the NO. That's a very unique niche/subset of the Catholic church, and does not fully encompass the meaning of the word 'traditional'. But it is the group that has chosen to call itself traditional (or rad trad) and therefore they get the name. Fine by me.

Edited May 15, 2010 by MithLuin

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='14 May 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1273889258' post='2110912']
lic.' As [b]Rex[/b] stated above, practically by definition, a traditional Catholic has a preference for the TLM as opposed to the NO. That's a very unique niche/subset of the Catholic church, and does not fully encompass the meaning of the word 'traditional'. But it is the group that has chosen to call itself traditional (or rad trad) and therefore they get the name. Fine by me.
[/quote]

Among devout and knowledgeable Catholics, a preference for the TLM is not as rare as you might think.

[MithLuin]

Oh, I know it's not rare. I happen to know some devout and knowledgeable Catholics . But I also know that there's about one mass offered in that style per city on any given Sunday, so the majority of Catholics (even the devout ones) are attending the NO regularly, and the TLM as a novelty or special occasion (if at all). [b]Apo[/b]'s definition of traditional is much more all-encompassing and, er, more traditional. That's what I meant by niche - that the definition has been narrowed to one subset, not all Catholics who live out the inherited tradition of the Catholic church.

Which is fine. A group that has something in common is going to call themselves [i]something[/i], and 'traditional' is a good word to describe what is important to this (loosely-defined) group of Catholics. It's just important to understand that the definition of the group is a narrowing down of what the word means in general.

Edited May 15, 2010 by MithLuin