"traditional" Versus "orthodox" Roman Catholic

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I should probably know this, but I don't.

What is the basic difference between a "Traditional" versus an "Orthodox" Roman Catholic? Some people on Phatmass seem to use the two terms interchangeably, but I assume there is a difference.

And, of the two terms, which is the one that I should use on Phatmass to describe the most common beliefs its members? I know that the posters on Phatmass do have differences, so one term probably won't be completely correct in every situation. But, which of the two is the "safest" term to use--that is, most likely to be correct?

Obviously, my last question doesn't apply if I am participating in a detailed conversation on the current theology of the Roman Catholic Church. However, since I doubt I'll be participating in that kind of thread in the near future, I'd simply like to know the better term to use in more general posts.

If there is no one "correct" answer, I'll just keep using "Traditional/Orthodox" or "Orthodox/Traditional" to try to cover the bases.

Thanks!

Edited May 14, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[mommas_boy]

I use them interchangeably, though I will more often say that I'm "orthodox" Catholic than "traditional" one out of habit. My one problem with my current habit is that I sound like I am saying that I'm a member of the Orthodox Church.

[Marie-Therese]

I think that for most of us, "traditional" refers to those who prefer the pre-concillar Mass and traditions (i.e. calendar, etc). Some people call them "traddies" for short. In general, I think most of Phatmass would refer to themselves as "orthodox." Little "o" orthodox, generally, means that you are a devout, practicing Catholic faithful to the teachings of the Church.

It is possible to be both traditional and orthodox. On the other hand, it is possible to be orthodox and NOT traditional, like it is also possible to be traditional and NOT orthodox (like some of the schismatic groups).

Does any of that make sense?

Of course, in saying orthodox we aren't referring to the big "o" orthodox, like the Greek Orthodox/Eastern Orthodox, etc. That is a difference in rite.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Marie-Therese

[MithLuin]

Orthodox tends to refer to an interest in believing what the Catholic Church believes and is often used to mean an effort to follow those teachings (even though that is technically orthopraxy, not orthodoxy). So, phatmassers who defend the faith, seek to clarify what the faith is, and correct misunderstandings people have about Church teachings can be referred to as [i]orthodox[/i].

Traditional means an interest in the traditions of the Church, and thus has more emphasis on practice than on beliefs. When someone speaks of a Catholic being traditional, they often mean that they like the Latin mass, care about liturgy being done correctly (by the book) and practice traditional devotions like rosary, eucharistic adoration, devotion to the saints, girls wearing veils in church, etc. Obviously, these things come up a lot on Phatmass, too.

I think either term can be used to describe some posters on Phatmass, though not everyone can be described by either of them.

That's my two cents.

[Resurrexi]

An orthodox Catholic is one who assents to all the teachings of the Catholic Church.

A traditional Catholic is one who prefers the traditional Roman Liturgy and considers it superior to the Novus Ordo.

[Vincent Vega]

I describe myself as orthodox, because I've never been to a TLM (not that I wouldn't go, if given the chance) and I have nothing against the NO. That said, if the NO were to go away tomorrow, I wouldn't be crushed at all. I just am not as big on the external stuff as some (not that that's a bad thing).

I think that most orthodox types would also be traditional, and vice versa; however, it's a trend that occasionally those who would describe themselves as traditional Catholics might be doing so to exert that they're doing things the right way, as opposed to the "neo-Catholics" (see the thread in the debate table) who adhere to things like the Second Vatican Council and believe that JPII was a valid pope, etc.

Of course though, to restate, one may certainly be an orthodox, traditional Catholic.

[CatherineM]

I'm Orthodox in that I follow all the rules, and believe in them. I'm not a Traditionalist because I'm not a big fan of the Latin. If the Vatican ordered us to all go back to the Latin, I'd comply willingly, but it would take me some time to become comfortable with it.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='14 May 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1273872014' post='2110759']
I think that for most of us, "traditional" refers to those who prefer the pre-concillar Mass and traditions (i.e. calendar, etc). Some people call them "traddies" for short. In general, I think most of Phatmass would refer to themselves as "orthodox." Little "o" orthodox, generally, means that you are a devout, practicing Catholic faithful to the teachings of the Church.

It is possible to be both traditional and orthodox. On the other hand, it is possible to be orthodox and NOT traditional, like it is also possible to be traditional and NOT orthodox (like some of the schismatic groups).

Of course, in saying orthodox we aren't referring to the big "o" orthodox, like the Greek Orthodox/Eastern Orthodox, etc. That is a difference in rite.
[/quote]


[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 May 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1273872374' post='2110764']
An orthodox Catholic is one who assents to all the teachings of the Catholic Church.

A traditional Catholic is one who prefers the traditional Roman Liturgy and considers it superior to the Novus Ordo.
[/quote]

Based on the two posts above, as well as the other posts, it sounds as if "orthodox" generally is the broader term, and "traditional" is a sub-group of "orthodox." However, on Phatmass, "traditional" is a BIG sub-group, and may actually describe the majority of Phatmass posters.

I'm going to ignore the schismatics.

Now that I have a better idea of the difference between the two terms, when it's relevant, I'll try using one term or the other, depending on the subject of the thread. And, if I'm not sure, or it seems more correct, I'll keep using something like "orthodox/traditional" in the hope that I am most likely to be correct, and to describe the most posters on Phatmass.

I'm sure I'm going to continue to make mistakes sometimes, but maybe not so often. Thank-you to everyone who posted replies. Your answers were very clear, concise, and helpful.

Edited May 14, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Apotheoun]

In ancient times the church was called [i]Catholic[/i] and the faith was called [i]Orthodox[/i], while [i]Tradition[/i] was held to be the living expression of the Orthodox faith through worship of the Triune God in the Catholic Church.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 May 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1273872374' post='2110764']
An orthodox Catholic is one who assents to all the teachings of the Catholic Church.

A traditional Catholic is one who prefers the traditional Roman Liturgy and considers it superior to the Novus Ordo.
[/quote]

I think this is a good way of summing it up too

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 May 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1273872374' post='2110764']
An orthodox Catholic is one who assents to all the teachings of the Catholic Church.

A traditional Catholic is one who prefers the traditional Roman Liturgy and considers it superior to the Novus Ordo.
[/quote]


[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='14 May 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1273874356' post='2110781']
I think this is a good way of summing it up too
[/quote]

Yes, I definitely agree. I think Resurrexi's explanation was excellent. It was concise and easy to understand, without "talking down" to the audience.

I would have given Rexi a +1 on his post if I had one right now. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif[/img]

[CatherineM]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='14 May 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1273873488' post='2110773']
Based on the two posts above, as well as the other posts, it sounds as if "orthodox" generally is the broader term, and "traditional" is a sub-group of "orthodox." However, on Phatmass, "traditional" is a BIG sub-group, and may actually describe the majority of Phatmass posters.

I'm going to ignore the schismatics.

Now that I have a better idea of the difference between the two terms, when it's relevant, I'll try using one term or the other, depending on the subject of the thread. And, if I'm not sure, or it seems more correct, I'll keep using something like "orthodox/traditional" in the hope that I am most likely to be correct, and to describe the most posters on Phatmass.

I'm sure I'm going to continue to make mistakes sometimes, but maybe not so often. Thank-you to everyone who posted replies. Your answers were very clear, concise, and helpful.
[/quote]
Just remember that there are some traditionalists who believe that if you aren't a traditionalist, then you can't be orthodox. That can keep a non-traditionalist quiet for fear of getting stomped on.

[Socrates]

Like others have said, "orthodox" (little "o") refers to those who agree fully with the magisterial teachings of the Church on matters of faith and morals.
"Traditional" refers to practicing or preferring older, traditional forms of Catholic worship (such as the old Latin mass).

Not all orthodox Catholics are traditionalists, and not all traditionalists are orthodox (though most would claim to be).

"Traditional" or "traditionalist" is itself a somewhat imprecise term, which can cover a wide spectrum, ranging from people who simply resist common forms of modern liturgical silliness and abuse and want a return to reverent worship, to crazy and extreme schismatic or heretical groups who reject contemporary Church leadership entirely. More extreme traditionalists are commonly known as "rad trads" (for "radical traditionalists.")

Some might consider me a "trad" because I'm currently a member of a traditionalist parish and attend TLM.
However, I don't have a problem with the NO mass if said properly and reverently (which in many places it is not).
Liberals would consider me an extreme traditionalist, while "rad trads" would probably consider me a damnable "neo-Catholic" modernist heretic.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='14 May 2010 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1273875482' post='2110790']
Yes, I definitely agree. I think Resurrexi's explanation was excellent. It was concise and easy to understand, without "talking down" to the audience.
[/quote]

I didn't know Rexi was was capable of that

kidding

[Apotheoun]

Interestingly enough, the present usage of the word "traditional" in the Western Church is not traditional, and would have been nonsensical to Catholics prior to Vatican II.