I Don't Buy My Mom's Argument

[tinytherese]

I'm frustrated at my mother because she doesn't seem to totally get what I went through and the possible dangers from being around my dad. I've told her that him sexually harassing me was very serious and that it is legally considered sexual assault. For all I know it could escalate, but she doesn't like me labeling him "my potential rapist." She says that she realizes that that was traumatic for me, but sexual harassment is not on the same scale and that it is wrong, but shouldn't be equated to the degree of possible rape. She made up a possible example of someone claiming that she tried to kill my little brother by disciplining him with spanking. (She isn't saying that I deserved the sexual harassment [inappropriate touching despite me telling him to stop] from him or that this him disciplining me.)I told her that those didn't seem related. She disagrees. I am upset with her. I need to forgive them both. What you think?

[Ephrem Augustine]

In my sexual ethics class, we covered domestic violence, and one end of the scale is sexual harrasment, and rape is the other. They are two ends of a spectrum of the same thing, domestic violence.
So yeah, you do have a real point.
as for spanking/discipline, and murder, those two things are completely unrelated.

The fact is therese, that you feel that your own boundaries are being violated and compromised, and that is significant, and should not just be brushed aside. to brush aside your boundaries, is to brush aside your safety, and your value therese. But, because your value is infinite before God, it ought never to be brushed aside, and those kinds of boundaries should be clear. Your mom is being blinded by "love" or something, I do not know.

[Noel's angel]

Try not be too hard on your mum. It seems like she's trying but I'm sure it's not easy for her to prcoess all of this. At the same time, you need to look after yourself-if that means not being aorund your father, then that's what you need to do.

[CatherineM]

Maybe it is time to separate a bit from them both. Just start to make your own life, and leave it up to them whether they want to be part of your life, on your terms.

[Brother Adam]

I am close to a woman friend who was in a similar position - a loving and concerned mother who did not take the sexual harassment seriously that the man in the house was committing against this friend. I'm sure she would be happy to talk to you if you want. Just let me know.

I agree with Catherine's assessment though, based on experience, it is time to separate yourself from the situation and start your own life.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='13 May 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1273773893' post='2110028']
I'm frustrated at my mother because she doesn't seem to totally get what I went through and the possible dangers from being around my dad. I've told her that him sexually harassing me was very serious and that it is legally considered sexual assault. For all I know it could escalate, but she doesn't like me labeling him "my potential rapist." She says that she realizes that that was traumatic for me, but sexual harassment is not on the same scale and that it is wrong, but shouldn't be equated to the degree of possible rape. She made up a possible example of someone claiming that she tried to kill my little brother by disciplining him with spanking. (She isn't saying that I deserved the sexual harassment [inappropriate touching despite me telling him to stop] from him or that this him disciplining me.)I told her that those didn't seem related. She disagrees. I am upset with her. I need to forgive them both. What you think?
[/quote]

No matter what your mom thinks--you're right. And, you need to put your needs first, because you are in a potentially harmful situation.

Is there ANY way you can move out of the house ASAP? Move in with a friend's family? Someone from your congregation?

If necessary, contact someone from Legal Aid and have the court get you a restraining order that your father is not to go near you, touch you, etc. You've been hurt enough. Even though your mother means well, she needs to believe that your father is okay. You know differently from experience. Don't let anyone put ANY guilt on you.

If your pastor doesn't have resources, the county probably has resources. I don't know the laws in your state.

Take care of yourself!!! I'll be praying for you. I HATE telling someone that their mother is wrong, but in this case, she is dangerously wrong.

Forgiving someone DOES NOT mean giving them the opportunity to hurt you.

Edited May 13, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[tinytherese]

I've been living with my maternal grandparents for the past few months while my parents and little brother live at home. Earlier, mom had told dad that he needed to leave for a while. He was living with his parents for a until last January, when mom told me that I needed to go to my grandparents. In the meantime, he, her, and his therapist meet every other week. The focus isn't on me as much, but on their marriage because he has been emotionally and verbally abusive to the both of us.

Mom is really hoping for him to learn how to change. She is giving him time to think about whether or not he is willing to try. She told me that I'll be with my grandparents until she decides what she's going to do. She told me in September that the decision to where people will reside on a more permanent basis would be made by Thanksgiving. (Mom was thinking of taking my brother and I to an apartment or buying or renting a house.) My dad to say the very least has narcissistic tendencies and may very well have the narcissistic mental disorder. To him, he supposedly didn't mean to hurt me so in his mind I shouldn't feel hurt. I just can't figure out if I was in real danger with him when he did what he did or if he was doing his usual bullying, meaning that he did it just to push my buttons. (He really enjoys that and does it to my mom and I a lot.) Mom just doesn't want to label him as an abuser.

She has told me before that he doesn't seem to be a socio-path like those that she has worked with before. (She's a public defender with a bachelors degree in social work.) She can't put it into words why she feels this way. She just seems to not be able to let go of her husband. I know that I've felt guilty, thinking that the way mom is doing this might be the only way that we have any shot at reaching him. I've been very concerned about his salvation. The thought that after a lot of persevering and he could change after a long period of time really gets to me. I don't want to be partially responsible for his probable damnation. Mom also really wants me to have a healthy relationship with him. She says that he doesn't care what he does to her, just that he treats me like I should be. I've been praying for him everyday and for the grace to forgive him. As afraid of him as I am I don't want him to go to hell.

She says she doesn't know when the decision about the living situation will be made. (I've expressed to her multiple times that I'm tired of waiting.) She has tried to get me to see that she is trying to do what is best for the family, that dad deserves a chance to prove himself. She is so uncertain and goes back and forth in her mind. She probably thinks that I am doing this because I haven't forgiven him. I may not have fully forgiven him, but I am a lot farther along in that process than she may realize. I told mom that I want her to come with me to one of my own personal therapy sessions to discuss this. The worst part of this just might be how dad's side of the family has been acting. I'm basically cut off from most of them.

Yes Brother Adam, I would like to talk to her if I could.

[Luthien]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='13 May 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1273786440' post='2110129']
I've been living with my maternal grandparents for the past few months while my parents and little brother live at home. Earlier, mom had told dad that he needed to leave for a while. He was living with his parents for a until last January, when mom told me that I needed to go to my grandparents. In the meantime, he, her, and his therapist meet every other week. The focus isn't on me as much, but on their marriage because he has been emotionally and verbally abusive to the both of us.

Mom is really hoping for him to learn how to change. She is giving him time to think about whether or not he is willing to try. She told me that I'll be with my grandparents until she decides what she's going to do. She told me in September that the decision to where people will reside on a more permanent basis would be made by Thanksgiving. (Mom was thinking of taking my brother and I to an apartment or buying or renting a house.) [b]My dad to say the very least has narcissistic tendencies and may very well have the narcissistic mental disorder. To him, he supposedly didn't mean to hurt me so in his mind I shouldn't feel hurt. I just can't figure out if I was in real danger with him when he did what he did or if he was doing his usual bullying, meaning that he did it just to push my buttons. (He really enjoys that and does it to my mom and I a lot.) Mom just doesn't want to label him as an abuser. [/b]

She has told me before that he doesn't seem to be a socio-path like those that she has worked with before. (She's a public defender with a bachelors degree in social work.) She can't put it into words why she feels this way. She just seems to not be able to let go of her husband. I know that I've felt guilty, thinking that the way mom is doing this might be the only way that we have any shot at reaching him. I've been very concerned about his salvation. The thought that after a lot of persevering and he could change after a long period of time really gets to me. I don't want to be partially responsible for his probable damnation. Mom also really wants me to have a healthy relationship with him. She says that he doesn't care what he does to her, just that he treats me like I should be. I've been praying for him everyday and for the grace to forgive him. As afraid of him as I am I don't want him to go to hell.

She says she doesn't know when the decision about the living situation will be made. (I've expressed to her multiple times that I'm tired of waiting.) She has tried to get me to see that she is trying to do what is best for the family, that dad deserves a chance to prove himself. She is so uncertain and goes back and forth in her mind. She probably thinks that I am doing this because I haven't forgiven him. I may not have fully forgiven him, but I am a lot farther along in that process than she may realize. I told mom that I want her to come with me to one of my own personal therapy sessions to discuss this. The worst part of this just might be how dad's side of the family has been acting. I'm basically cut off from most of them.

Yes Brother Adam, I would like to talk to her if I could.
[/quote]

The bolded part stood out to me, because that is a very accurate description of an abuser.

[MithLuin]

I can understand why your mom bristles up when you call your dad a 'potential rapist.' After all, he didn't rape you. Technically, all people are 'potential' rapists/murderers/Nazis/etc. She loves your dad and doesn't want to see him demonized beyond his actual crimes. So, provoking her that way probably won't help to move the situation forwards.

What he did wasn't [i]just[/i] sexual harassment, though. That could just be words. He touched you inappropriately, in an abusive way. You have every reason not to feel comfortable around him, and feel the need to keep your distance. Do not allow her to downplay what happened as something minor or 'all in the past' now. You have every reason to be concerned about what might happen if you lived under the same roof as him again (after all, no one wants to prove that a potential rapist is a rapist...by letting him rape someone).

If it helps to drive the point home, mention to her that some of the priests accused of sex abuse in the Catholic church didn't do anything more than what your father did to you. Some were child rapists, yes...while others touched a minor inappropriately...and that's 'all.'

Your mother is trying to save her marriage and her family. I am sure you would be happy if she and your brother and you lived somewhere together without him. But...that means her marriage is over. By leaving you at your grandparents a little longer, she's trying to do what she can to help your father make the changes he needs to. He's hurt her too, of course, and it must be painful for her to work through some of the things they're dealing with.

But you feel you have lost not just your father, but your family, and not surprisingly are a bit impatient with the current arrangements.

While I understand why you care about your father's eternal salvation, I don't think that's your problem right now. Pray for him when you pray for healing and the ability to forgive him. It's okay to leave the state of his soul in God's hands, and a lot can happen in the future.

I don't know how old you are, but I teach high school students who live alone, pay their own rent, and have jobs to support themselves. Those situations are [i]far[/i] from ideal, but at some point, you will also have to choose between continuing to live with your family and striking out on your own. You might want to think about what it would take to live on your own so you will know how feasible that is.

Edited May 13, 2010 by MithLuin

[Slappo]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='13 May 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1273790954' post='2110151']
[b]I can understand why your mom bristles up when you call your dad a 'potential rapist.' After all, he didn't rape you. Technically, all people are 'potential' rapists/murderers/Nazis/etc.[/b] She loves your dad and doesn't want to see him demonized beyond his actual crimes. So, provoking her that way probably won't help to move the situation forwards.

What he did wasn't [i]just[/i] sexual harassment, though. That could just be words. He touched you inappropriately, in an abusive way. You have every reason not to feel comfortable around him, and feel the need to keep your distance. Do not allow her to downplay what happened as something minor or 'all in the past' now. You have every reason to be concerned about what might happen if you lived under the same roof as him again (after all, no one wants to prove that a potential rapist is a rapist...by letting him rape someone).

If it helps to drive the point home, mention to her that some of the priests accused of sex abuse in the Catholic church didn't do anything more than what your father did to you. Some were child rapists, yes...while others touched a minor inappropriately...and that's 'all.'

Your mother is trying to save her marriage and her family. I am sure you would be happy if she and your brother and you lived somewhere together without him. But...that means her marriage is over. By leaving you at your grandparents a little longer, she's trying to do what she can to help your father make the changes he needs to. He's hurt her too, of course, and it must be painful for her to work through some of the things they're dealing with.

But you feel you have lost not just your father, but your family, and not surprisingly are a bit impatient with the current arrangements.

While I understand why you care about your father's eternal salvation, I don't think that's your problem right now. Pray for him when you pray for healing and the ability to forgive him. It's okay to leave the state of his soul in God's hands, and a lot can happen in the future.

I don't know how old you are, but I teach high school students who live alone, pay their own rent, and have jobs to support themselves. Those situations are [i]far[/i] from ideal, but at some point, you will also have to choose between continuing to live with your family and striking out on your own. You might want to think about what it would take to live on your own so you will know how feasible that is.
[/quote]


I agree with this.


I would be wary to label him as a "potential rapist" even if it is true. For the same reason that a large majority of men are potential rapists. Pornography has huge huge ties to rape and a large majority of men at one point in their lives have been involved in pornography.

I'm not saying you should down play his actions, but I see where it would be frustrating for your mother to have her husband labeled as a potential rapist. There are even large differences between sexual assault and rape.

That's my two cents. Don't downplay it but don't overplay it either.

[Semper Catholic]

Forget that, I don't know what your Dad did to you, but if anyone said anything to my kid (let alone did anything), regardless of relationship, they would be out the door so fast their head would be spinning.

Your Mom doesn't have an argument end of story.

Not everyone "is a potential rapist"

People who start with sexual harassment, sexual abuse, are though.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Slappo' date='13 May 2010 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1273792524' post='2110159']
I agree with this.


I would be wary to label him as a "potential rapist" even if it is true. For the same reason that a large majority of men are potential rapists. Pornography has huge huge ties to rape and a large majority of men at one point in their lives have been involved in pornography.
[/quote]

i just wanted to point out, recently a bunch of scientists tried doing a test on something to do with guys and porn watching experience, but they couldnt find any who had never viewed porn at least once. in this day and age you might as well say bread causes rape cause all rapists have eaten bread. just wanting to point out that correlation =/= causation.

i am fine with the rest of your post.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='13 May 2010 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1273796201' post='2110186']
i just wanted to point out, recently a bunch of scientists tried doing a test on something to do with guys and porn watching experience, but they couldnt find any who had never viewed porn at least once. in this day and age you might as well say bread causes rape cause all rapists have eaten bread. just wanting to point out that correlation =/= causation.

i am fine with the rest of your post.
[/quote]

The difference is that rapists are commonly [b]regular or obsessive[/b] users of porn.

Most men have viewed porn once, but regularly or obsessively is a lot different.

[Hilde]

I'm going to go ahead and not jump on the "understand where your mom's coming from" train. If my mom said something like that to me, I would literally seperate myself from her. Remove myself(move out) and it would take a lot of time and repentance for me to forgive her(reconcile). Even if the father could better himself and change, that doesn't erase the fact that him, at that point in time, did something horrible wrong and scarring and fury is justified. I know it's a overused term but "validate my feelings" springs to mind.

I'm not really giving you advice here, I'm just saying what I would do.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='13 May 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1273790954' post='2110151']
I can understand why your mom bristles up when you call your dad a 'potential rapist.' After all, he didn't rape you. Technically, all people are 'potential' rapists/murderers/Nazis/etc. She loves your dad and doesn't want to see him demonized beyond his actual crimes. So, provoking her that way probably won't help to move the situation forwards.

What he did wasn't [i]just[/i] sexual harassment, though. That could just be words. He touched you inappropriately, in an abusive way. You have every reason not to feel comfortable around him, and feel the need to keep your distance. Do not allow her to downplay what happened as something minor or 'all in the past' now. You have every reason to be concerned about what might happen if you lived under the same roof as him again (after all, no one wants to prove that a potential rapist is a rapist...by letting him rape someone).

If it helps to drive the point home, mention to her that some of the priests accused of sex abuse in the Catholic church didn't do anything more than what your father did to you. Some were child rapists, yes...while others touched a minor inappropriately...and that's 'all.'

Your mother is trying to save her marriage and her family. I am sure you would be happy if she and your brother and you lived somewhere together without him. But...that means her marriage is over. By leaving you at your grandparents a little longer, she's trying to do what she can to help your father make the changes he needs to. He's hurt her too, of course, and it must be painful for her to work through some of the things they're dealing with.

But you feel you have lost not just your father, but your family, and not surprisingly are a bit impatient with the current arrangements.

While I understand why you care about your father's eternal salvation, I don't think that's your problem right now. Pray for him when you pray for healing and the ability to forgive him. It's okay to leave the state of his soul in God's hands, and a lot can happen in the future.

I don't know how old you are, but I teach high school students who live alone, pay their own rent, and have jobs to support themselves. Those situations are [i]far[/i] from ideal, but at some point, you will also have to choose between continuing to live with your family and striking out on your own. You might want to think about what it would take to live on your own so you will know how feasible that is.
[/quote]
I have to say that I agree. I know this must be incredibly hard on you, TT, but I can also see how this would be incredibly hard on your mother. I can't fathom ever being in that situation, where one must literally choose between their child and their spouse. And you say he's verbally abusive to her, too, and we know that those in an abusive situation take a long time to realise exactly how bad that is and to extricate themselves from it. I am not in any way trying to downplay your experience - no father (or any man) should ever have done that. I do agree that just separating from them might be best for now, though I know that also will be very difficult. Know that I'm praying for all of you. I'm sure Mother Mary has her arms around you, too.