CreepyCrawler Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 [quote name='CreepyCrawler' date='Apr 25 2004, 07:00 PM'] Another question: if someone were to become athiest, is that just a 'backsliding' time period or an actual rejection? and wouldn't that athiest think that he was saved at the moment he 'got saved?' how would you know the difference? and if you say the same things and accept christ all the same -- how is it that one person is saved and another not? is it more of a predestination thing where God only saves certain people and even if you 'accept christ' you're not actually saved if you're not chosen by God? if not, then how does God determine who's saved or not? sorry for all the questions, i'm just curious. [/quote] hey lj can u answer my question (it's in the quote box above) thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 Now for your reply lumber, if you please. I am very aware of the context of Galatians but this doesn't make Paul's words mean something totally different from what he is saying. You have to actually make an effort to understand context lumber, you can't just shout it out and assume that the context agrees with what you are saying and exactly denies what Catholics are saying. You do this all the time especially with James 2 and the rest of us can do nothing but look on dismally. Anyways, I will put the discussion items forward again so as not to wander futher of topic. How can Christians who have been set free possibly submit back to the yoke of slavery or slavery to the law? What is the consequence of this? The next verses say that Christ is no benefit to us - that we become separated from Christ and that we have fallen from grace - how can this be possible if we are once saved and always saved? Later in the chapter we see that our freedom can be used to serve the flesh where it should be used to serve our neighbors in love. What is the consequence of using our freedom to serve the flesh? The next verses say that those who do works of the flesh won't inherit heaven and so Paul warns us against these evils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 26 2004, 06:36 AM']you're funny like ironmonk is funny. context of a letter Paul wrote is unchangeable, whether it be by the Roman Catholic Church, or by some cultist group that takes select verses for its own use (Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, the Mormons, JW's....) you can say anything you like likos, its all good. I understand that if you couldn't take certain verses to mean certain things, things wouldn't get done the way they do in your religion. oh well, so much for keeping the Bible in context...I guess so long as you can apply it as necessary, its in good context... God bless.[/quote] Glad to be of service, if only to provide you with an object of derision. I'll try to make my meaning clearer with the following example: Einstein did not [i]interpret[/i] his theory of relativity. He wrote it, understood perfectly what he [i]meant[/i] by the words and equations he put on paper, and personally taught his theory to others. Later Scientists, who did not know Einstein personally, have had to [i]interpret[/i] what he meant based on his written words and equations alone, comparing their theories to the [i]traditional [/i] understanding of those who knew him. They've lost access to the [u]primary context[/u] -- the mind of the living, teaching Einstein, the author of those words. Ergo, they can't ask him, "What did you mean by this phrase"? Since they've lost access to Einstein's understanding of his own theory, they must now substitute their own understanding, their own interpretation, of his writings. The [u]secondary context[/u] is the words and equations that surround a particular section or phrase in his writings, and is helpful to clarify usage and meaning. You and other Protestants are in a similar situation, because you have cut yourselves off from the True Church who wrote the words of the NT. You've lost the [i]primary context[/i]. The living, believing, teaching Catholic Church, from the context of her bosom in which the NT was written, has been teaching the meaning of it to her children for 2,000 years. There is only ONE correct interpretation of the NT Scriptures, and that is the one traditionally held and taught by the Catholic Church for the last 2,000 years -- the meaning the Holy Spirit intended to convey through the words of the Church's children, the sacred NT writers. The Church is the [u][i]primary context[/i][/u] in which the words of the NT were written, and she alone knows their true meaning. She taught others their meaning then, and she teaches us now. So where you and others are at variance with the Church's teaching -- which is the teaching of the Apostles -- about what the words of the NT signify, you are wrong and the Catholic Church is right. Where you and the Catholic Church agree as to their meaning, you are correct. The New Testament is the record of the spiritual life of the newborn Catholic Church during the first 100 years or so of her history, written by her sons. From it, we know what the Church founded by Christ believed and practiced during its earliest years. It's the Church's "family album" -- a "window" through which we can view first-century Christianity as it was experienced and understood by those who lived it. The New Testament is not an instruction book in Christian doctrine. The Church did not come out of the New Testament; rather, the NT came out of the living, believing, teaching Church. The Catholic Church condemns the 16th century doctrine of OSAS. Ave Cor Mariae, Katholikos (BTW, that's Greek for Catholic, as in "where Jesus Christ is, there is the Katholikos [Universal] Church." See my sig.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 does "being saved" as it has been used in this thread refer to the doctrine of predestination?.......what is the end result of "being saved"...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 lanky, predestination is a whole other issue...if you'd like, I'll share what little I know. the end result of "being saved" is that you are now in the Family of God...the communion of the saints, a brother in Christ, a son of the Almighty Living God. you are cleansed of all sin, and born a new in Christ. you are now called to live a life of purity and to be more like Christ every day. to grow in wisdom, to read the Bible, to fellowship with your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ...the list is a pretty long one...not that it would ever end were I to run it down completely... the final end result of being saved is heaven with God...eternity worshipping the Saviour of the Universe. ----- [quote]You and other Protestants are in a similar situation, because you have cut yourselves off from the True Church who wrote the words of the NT. You've lost the primary context[/quote] likos, how can primary context be lost if it is readily evident to whom Paul is writing, and why he is writing to them? can the text mean anything other than what it says it does? and the thing about einstein's theory...along with other theories...is just that. its a theory. gravity? not a theory. death? not a theory. Christ is the Son of God? not a theory we are not bound by and under the law? not a theory Mary assumed into heaven? thats a myth. God bless. Christ first and only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 ok so you are asserting that if you are saved you are going to heaven....correct? or am i reading this: [quote]the final end result of being saved is heaven with God...eternity worshipping the Saviour of the Universe.[/quote] if this is so.....then what is the point of living a life directed toward Him if you are going to heaven anyway??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 I'm not sure as to what exactly you're asking... we live life for God to minister to those about Him and the sacrifice Christ made for us. we live to glorify God. we live to preach the gospel...with words or not. we live to be living examples of what God has done. we live to show people that God is real. I hope thats at least part of what you were asking. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 ok my point is this....... you have established that if i am saved, i will go to heaven religions that do not believe in OSAS, namely Catholicism, believe that you must live a life that shows the faith you have in Christ, through your works my works, as a result of my faith, are helping me earn heaven heaven is my ultimate goal if heaven is as simple as "being saved", what is the point of living to Glorify God, living to preach the Gospel, living to be examples of what God has done, living to show people that God is real..........you have already achieved teh goal......there doesnt seem to be any purpose to the living part of it if this doesnt help i have another idea ill try but i like this better hehe..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 [quote]my works, as a result of my faith, are helping me earn heaven[/quote] there is no amount of good works you will do that will EVER earn you heaven. Ephesians 2:8,9 brother, you know this. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do good works, as you say, a good work should come from faith...not because you believe its earning you heaven. we do good works because we're going to heaven...not in order to go to heaven. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 ok that did not convey the correct message ok because you are human i know you sin......so think of a sin you commit ok......got it?......what inside of you justifies that sin, like why do you commit that sin more to come..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 Your silence is telling lumber. What does your above post have to do with predestination? I'd like to hear your take on it. Our own works can do nothing to save us else we would have reason to boast (Eph 2) but in Christ and in his works we have all reason to boast. The children of God do works of grace that are indeed meritorious. [quote]who will repay everyone according to his works: [b]eternal life to those [/b]who seek glory, honor, and immortality [u][b]through perseverance in good works[/b][/u].[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 [quote]Your silence is telling lumber.[/quote] my silence is telling?!??!?! hahahaha why? because I haven't pressed 'REFRESH' in the past 30 seconds? hhahaha you're the greatest. and if you want to speak about predestination, start a thread...I'll post the little I know about it. ------ [quote]ok because you are human i know you sin......so think of a sin you commit ok......got it?......what inside of you justifies that sin, like why do you commit that sin[/quote] and lanky, if and WHEN I do commit sin thru a thought...which I do...I commit it because my flesh is weak...my spirit however strives and burns to live for God. this is why the flesh and spirit will never be in harmony. this is the way we are... to say otherwise would be wrong. BUT, the Lord knows that I am weak, and seeks to cleanse me...thats where conviction by the Holy Spirit comes in...and I repent...ask God to forgive me, and walk forward in Christ. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 (edited) my double posts are telling....hahhaha Edited April 26, 2004 by the lumberjack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 I posted this morning at 7:57 AM - of course I would be referring to our dialogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 Read this [url="http://www.catholicism.org/pages/devilsdoc.htm"]http://www.catholicism.org/pages/devilsdoc.htm[/url] OSAS no good! God Bless Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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