Osas

[the lumberjack]

willguy, thats exactly it. if you become saved, you are saved despite yourself...kind of like your papal infallibility(notice I said KIND OF LIKE, we aren't infallible)...despite whatever you do, God will call you back to Himself...

so technically, you can't ungrow...

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and JS,

how do both prove it and NOT prove it at the same time?

"happens to remain"? you make it sound like its a luck of the draw..."OOOOOH, sorry, you really weren't saved. enjoy hell!"

either you are, or you aren't. and if you are, God will hold you in His hand.

didn't david say that "even in the place of the dead, you are there"? no matter where we go, He is there...calling us to Him, to follow as we should.

[willguy]

[quote]so technically, you can't ungrow...[/quote]

But in the parable, some of the plants DIE. In my opinion , dying is pretty much the ultimate ungrowth.

[quote]He is there...calling us to Him, to follow as we should.
[/quote]

Yes, but we can reject His call. We can also follow His call for a while and then turn (case in point: Judas Iscariot).

[Hananiah]

I'm noticing an uncanny absence of rebuttals to either my post on the first page or Dave's post on the second. Is anyone going to give it a shot?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 14 2004, 04:07 PM'] God just wanted to love me and mold me into His servant...
[/quote]
That's why He brought you here to learn about His Church.

God Bless, Love in Christ,
ironmonk

[the lumberjack]

and I am!

and I praise Him for all the brothers and sisters I have in Him...everywhere.

from my church that I go to, to the brothers in WA, OK, TX, CO, WV, and mulls out in CT!

word up.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]how do both prove it and NOT prove it at the same time?[/quote]

Sorry for the confusion, it doesn't prove both, some believe it proves OSAS and I am saying it doesn't.

OSAS has developed an elaborate scheme behind its simple appearance. Truth is it has no place in the Bible.

Of course God is faithful, nobody is contesting that. You though have forced your understanding of OSAS into the idea of God being faithful where there is no evidence for it. That is what we call reading into the text and not out of it. Tell me, is it the Catholic contention that God is not always standing there, that he is not faithful? As a Catholic I can tell you no, that isn't the case. You assume that unless you believe in OSAS, God isn't faithful. That is a truly sad and unfortunate interpretation of God's saving work.

[the lumberjack]

oh, btw, this is a BUMP for those that missed it the first time.

and JS...it is very simple.

[quote]OSAS has developed an elaborate scheme behind its simple appearance. Truth is it has no place in the Bible.

Of course God is faithful, nobody is contesting that. You though have forced your understanding of OSAS into the idea of God being faithful where there is no evidence for it. That is what we call reading into the text and not out of it. Tell me, is it the Catholic contention that God is not always standing there, that he is not faithful? As a Catholic I can tell you no, that isn't the case. You assume that unless you believe in OSAS, God isn't faithful. That is a truly sad and unfortunate interpretation of God's saving work.[/quote]

if God is NOT faithful in the way I speak of, then why did David write Psalm 139 he way he did?

[quote]1 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

[b]7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

[u]10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.[/u]

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.[/b][/quote]

God knows all and sees all...and no matter where we go or what we do, He will keep us in His hand when we become His children...or are you calling David a liar?



God bless.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]LJ writes:[/b]
God knows all and sees all...and no matter where we go or what we do, He will keep us in His hand when we become His children...or are you calling David a liar?[/quote]
No, but David was a poet. Meanwhile, St. Paul, who was not a poet, said we had to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and described his own faith as a race that he had to keep vigorously running for fear of losing the race and forfeiting the prize.

You've been asking for concise, biblical support for our beliefs. There's one. Now, I'd like an answer. How do you explain the doctrine of once saved, always saved in light of what St. Paul said? If he was saved and could not lose his salvation, then why did he describe the Christian faith as a race that one had to keep running, lest one lose the race and forfeit the prize? This description is found repeatedly in more than one of his letters.

[the lumberjack]

you answer mine first.

David was a poet...so? He was also a King.

a warrior.
a champion.
an alduterer.
a man after God's own heart.

His words are still found in the Bible...and unless you don't use all the bible, as all catholics on here say you do, you are not the right church I should be lookin at.

give me just a couple of verses that Paul uses for the race...I can't recall them right now...thanks!

love.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]LJ writes:[/b]
you answer mine first.

David was a poet...so? He was also a King.

a warrior.
a champion.
an alduterer.
a man after God's own heart.

His words are still found in the Bible...and unless you don't use all the bible, as all catholics on here say you do, you are not the right church I should be lookin at.[/quote]
Okay. David wrote about trusting in God's help. Great, we agree with that. We absolutely trust that God will deliver us from sin, and we absolutely trust in His grace and mercy. But we also know that He's given us free will, and that we have the capacity to reject Him, despite the grace that He's constantly giving us. We don't believe that God takes our free will away at Baptism, so we believe that it's still possible for us to reject Him after Baptism.

This does not contradict David's psalm about hopefully trusting in the Lord. Catholics do the same thing. We don't trust ourselves to always accept what He's offering us, and that's the difference between Catholic theology and OSAS. We know that we can reject Him, so that leads us to struggle to persevere through prayer and works.

Now, I would like you to answer what I said about St. Paul and his race metaphor. Look in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, Philippians 3:10-14, Hebrews 12:1, Ephesians 6:10-18, and 2 Timothy 2:4-13. I especially like Philippians 3:10-14:

[quote]...that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conforms to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.  [b]Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on[/b] so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.  [b]Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet[/b]; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and [b]reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.[/b][/quote]
How do you explain that in regard to OSAS? If anyone could have been assured of his salvation, wouldn't it have been Paul? Then why isn't he sure of it? Why does he say he isn't there yet? Wasn't he baptized? Didn't he profess that Jesus Christ was his personal Lord and Savior? "Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet..."

[the lumberjack]

[quote]1Cor 9:24 24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.[/quote]

does this mean that only one person will be saved? or what does it mean in the context it was used in...I'll post more tomorrow.

God bless.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]LJ writes:[/b]
does this mean that only one person will be saved? or what does it mean in the context it was used in...I'll post more tomorrow.[/quote]
Way to dance all around that without actually answering it.

When you come back tomorrow, I'd ask that you specifically address the highlighted portions of Philippians, as well as addressing the possibility of Paul's disqualification from winning the prize in Corinthians. It's not fair to ask us to answer questions and then be unwilling to answer them yourself.

[the lumberjack]

and I'd like YOU to answer what David said...that no matter where we go or what we do, God will be there...

poet or not, its still the Word of God.

I'll probly reply tomorrow or later today...kinda busy.

God bless.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]...that no matter where we go or what we do, God will be there[/quote]

Amen to that! I defer to Good Friday's post above:

[quote]Okay. David wrote about trusting in God's help. Great, we agree with that. We absolutely trust that God will deliver us from sin, and we absolutely trust in His grace and mercy. But we also know that He's given us free will, and that we have the capacity to reject Him, despite the grace that He's constantly giving us. We don't believe that God takes our free will away at Baptism, so we believe that it's still possible for us to reject Him after Baptism.[/quote]

Did you miss that?

This would be a very consistent idea throughout the NT and that is what the Word of God is about, consistency and not trying to make it a Word of contradiction as your doctrine forces us to conclude.

Consider the comments in Galatians 5:
[quote][b]For you were called for freedom, brothers[/b]. [b][u]But [i]do not use this freedom[/i] as an opportunity for the flesh[/u][/b]; [b]rather, serve one another through love[/b].[/quote]

So Christians still have the freedom to choose? What are the consequences of choosing the flesh again?

[quote]Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, 15 drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. [b]I [u][i]warn you, as I warned you before[/i][/u], that those who do such things [i]will not inherit the kingdom of God[/i].[/b][/quote]

This is one of many "problem" texts for those in the osas school.

Edited April 25, 2004 by Justified Saint

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Consider the comments in Galatians 5:
 
For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love.

So Christians still have the freedom to choose? What are the consequences of choosing the flesh again?[/quote]

okay, I can only post real quick, but look the whole passage, could you?
Paul refers to our freedom in Christ...not our free will.

he says that just because we are called to freedom in Christ, DOES NOT mean we have freedom thru Christ to do what we wish, and "still be free in Christ"...

but you know what? thats just a "protestant private interpretation" probly not worth much to you...not that it matters much to me. whether or not you like it, its the truth. directly from the Bible.

amen and God bless.