Osas

[the lumberjack]

no, GC, its almost exactly like you said.

you didn't gather that from ANY of the posts I've put?

not just here, but in other threads as well...

like you said:
[quote]If you screw up in that relationship, it doesn't end. Just like when you mess up in your marriage, it doesn't end. You just work on it.[/quote]

thats exactly it. you screw up, and God will call you back, so He can work on you. and straighten the relationship out...

you pretty much layed out for me...though I believe I've said the same thing more than once.

God bless.

[mulls]

[quote]So you're either saved/not saved. [/quote]


basically.


[quote]Regardless of the condition of your soul in relation to God.[/quote]


umm, that refers exactly to the condition of your soul in relation to God.


[quote] So if you happen to hang out with the wrong people for a while and commit offenses to God, oops, not saved in the first place. [/quote]


no. come on, i know you know better.


[quote]Listen, our relationships with Christ are just that, a RELATIONSHIP.



It is analogous to a marriage, because, once you accept Christ at baptism and in your heart, you are in an intimate relationship with him. [/quote]


agreed. key word ACCEPT, not being raised that way or born into it. you got it.


[quote]The OSAS works, it's like you're constantly divorcing, even annulling your relationship with Christ every time you fall into deep sin. [/quote]


i dont understand that.


[quote]Even the worst relationships can be salvaged by the grace of God. If Your relationship with God is hanging only by a thread, He can restore it through the sacraments. [/quote]


agreed, minus the sacraments. yes i'm sure they help, for you, but that's not the only way He can restore it.


[quote]But our relatiuonship with Christ, once begun, will NEVER end except is YOU end(ie die) and have ultimately rejected him. He wants us, and will never stop standing at the door and knocking, awaiting our return.[/quote]


AGREED! EXACTLY!

i have no idea what you're trying to argue. see my original post, we make the same point, as well as lumberjack.

[Brother Adam]

Our liberation from evil (salvation) is through a covenant relationship in Christs' blood.

That did it for me.

Even Catholics agree that once your an adopted son of God through baptism, that's it. It's forever. The debate is if we can later say "no thanks" to our inheretance.

[the lumberjack]

I see what you're saying...

but....

what about the parable of the seeds and the soil?

I haven't read it in a while, but it comes to mind...

[Dave]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 14 2004, 02:16 PM'] thats exactly it. you screw up, and God will call you back, so He can work on you. and straighten the relationship out...

[/quote]
Yes, but it's up to us to accept. We can choose to accept or not. But you're saying that if you've "accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" once that you can't help but choose to accept from then on.

[the lumberjack]

if you are truly saved, then no, you CAN'T NOT accept it.

otherwise, you're like one of the other places the seed landed.

[Dave]

If you can't not accept it, then why does Paul warn his audiences to avoid sin and that whoever continues to sin will be damned? These people were already Christians. If they couldn't lose their salvation if they were truly saved, then what wasthe point of Paul warning them?

[the lumberjack]

gimme the Scripture dave...

[God Conquers]

I know that at that end, our arguments are the same.

But this whole thing about "not being saved in the first place" if you mess up is what I was arguing against. You're saved, you're saved, from CHrist's perspective, no matter what you do inbetween, but our actions can separate or destroy that relationship. But it doen't mena that we were "never saved" in the first place.

[BullnaChinaShop]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 14 2004, 02:43 PM']if you are truly saved, then no, you CAN'T NOT accept it.

otherwise, you're like one of the other places the seed landed.[/quote]
But because of our free will we can always, even up to our deaths, reject something that we once accepted. Because of this we can not be truely "saved" until we die and are incapable of turning way from God. Once we die we are either turned to God or away from Him. At that point we are either saved or damned. Up until them we must work out our salvation by doing our best to live our lives as Christ commanded with faith that he has redeemed us by his death and resurection.

[Dave]

There are too many to list every single one, but here are some highlights ...

Rom. 11:20-22 - we can be in the tree of God's grace by faith in the Messiah, then quit believing and persevering and be cut off.

1 Cor. 9:22,27 - even Saint Paul recognized that he could lose his salvation by choosing wrong. Not every runner receives a prize. If Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why are many Protestant churches so presumptuous to think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:27 - the word "disqualified" that Paul uses comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. This proves that Paul believes he can lose his salvation. Protestants, therefore, who believe in "once saved, always saved" have to argue that "disqualified" cannot refer to being cut off from Christ and salvation. Instead, they argue that "disqualified" only refers to receiving less rewards in heaven. But Scripture disproves their claim:

Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7 - for example, in these verses "adokimos" always refers to those reprobates who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards.

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 10:12 - anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away.

1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory "once saved, always saved."

2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.

2 Cor. 11:2-3 - I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ. Paul thus teaches that we can be in Christ, and still fall away from Christ. Once saved, always saved?

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If "once saved, always saved" were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling?

Phil. 3:11-12 - again, Saint Paul acknowledges the need to endure to the end and has no presumption of salvation.

Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we are steadfast.

Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.

1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.

1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.

1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit "expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith." They had the faith, then lost it.

1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).

1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).

2 Tim. 4:8 - it is only at end of Saint Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. But this is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we must have a moral certitude of salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We can choose to fall away.

And there are other passages in other books of the New Testament, including the Gospels.

[Brother Adam]

lumberjack

What about the parable of the Judgement? (Did not do unto the least of these....went away into the outerdarkness)

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 14 2004, 01:57 PM'] I know that at that end, our arguments are the same.

But this whole thing about "not being saved in the first place" if you mess up is what I was arguing against. You're saved, you're saved, from CHrist's perspective, no matter what you do inbetween, but our actions can separate or destroy that relationship. But it doen't mena that we were "never saved" in the first place. [/quote]
I messed up, BIG. and it wasn't till after 3 years that I was FINALLY unstupid (is that even a word? ) enough to realize that God just wanted to love me and mold me into His servant...

its not if you "mess up" we all mess up...its if you curse God and turn away from him, and die after having done so...for the duration of your life..that is what I speak of...but like I said, I'm not God, so I can't say for absolutely sure...

and if I get you right, which I think I am...yeah, we are saying the same thing.

[willguy]

Two things,

One, as dUSt said, how do I know that I'm saved and not just thinking I'm saved but will fall away?

[quote]what about the parable of the seeds and the soil?

I haven't read it in a while, but it comes to mind... [/quote]

Actually, the parable of the seeds works better for someone against OSAS. There are some that grow and then die. If once-saved always-saved was true, then once you grow you couldn't ungrow.

[Justified Saint]

It is important to realize:

a) if a person becomes a believer and happens to remain a believer for the rest of their life...osas is proven, and I say NO that doesn't prove it.

b) if a person believes and then falls away and then believes again...osas is proven because God always brings you back, and I say NO that doesn't prove it.

See how the doctrine itself has been molded to seemingly fit every possibility? The one test it doesn't pass though is the test of the Bible.

Thank you Dave for posting some good Scriptures, its always good to see what they have to say especially on an issue like salvation.

Edited April 14, 2004 by Justified Saint