Obamacare's Danger Signs

[Apotheoun]

Obamacare signals the death of the federal constitutional in which government is held to have limited enumerated powers.

[dairygirl4u2c]

even if they were in debt, the bottom line is that we spend 17%, and they spend 10%, other countries in general, not just france. perhaps france speifically has a lower spending to GDP ratio, only because of debt and bad management, but that's the outlier.

[quote name='T-Bone _' date='12 May 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1273676842' post='2109349']
If these ways existed, then why are they not implemented elsewhere?
[/quote]

they are. for example, i think in england, you can go to the doctor privately, dont have to wait in line. i think they allow you to use government funds that you otherwise would have gotten had you waited in line, and then use your own for supllment- and if they don't they should. the point being ultimately, there's ways to mitigate the bad effects, or diminish them, even if they aren't being used. any government system, is by and large, incompetent to form policy, though at least theoretically, they could.


it makes sense that the government could do it better, at least compared to what the private system does now. medicare spends five percent on administration, most private insurers spend 30 percent. that doesn't even include profit motives. and, medicare or the government, dont have to have the redundancy that most private businesses have- eg, ten businesses to do a million people, or one government unit.
skip out the middleman, either pay doctors directly from the government, or have government doctors. there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[Winchester]

The New Deal did that.

[MIKolbe]

it would have been cooler if our founding fathers instead of saying "limited enumerated powers", they should have put a number to it. Like "283 enumerated powers".

It woulda made for more exciting legislation.

[Apotheoun]

The federal government, even prior to its take over of the health care system, has over 108 trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities. No country can survive with massive debt for ever. America is Greece in waiting.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='12 May 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1273683286' post='2109403']
Obamacare signals the death of the federal constitutional in which government is held to have limited enumerated powers.
[/quote]

if you ask most conservatives, this is clearly the case. i disagree, at least that it's clearly the case.

[quote]The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence [b]and general Welfare of the United States[/b]; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;[/quote]

there's arguments that this was intended only to be for already existing powers specifically enumerated, but it doesn't say that in the constitution.
in fact, even strong thomas jefferson libertarian himself said he would not "dare lay a finger on that part of the constitution that gives the government power for items of benelovence" - or something to that effect cause he knew what the constitution grants.
it's ironic, many conservatives who don't like activist judges, are themselves being activists in two sense: 1. denying what the constiution says 2. desiring to undo laws that already exist through judicial fiat, saying they're unconstitutional, and thereby usurping to themselves what the constitution means, instead of deferring to the legislature, in questions such as these

Edited May 12, 2010 by dairygirl4u2c

[Winchester]

General welfare of the United States does not translate into particular welfare for select individuals. iot does not give the government the power to determine who deserves the wealth one person earns privately.

[dairygirl4u2c]

oh, maybe it was madison. but still, he wrote disparigingly about that clause, cause he knows what it says.

[quote]James Madison is the acknowledged father of the constitution. In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia. James Madison wrote disapprovingly, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." Today, at least two-thirds of a $2.5 trillion federal budget is spent on the “objects of benevolence.” That includes Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, aid to higher education, farm and business subsidies, welfare, ad nauseam. [/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='12 May 2010 - 11:01 AM' timestamp='1273683698' post='2109411']
if you ask most conservatives, this is clearly the case. i disagree, at least that it's clearly the case.
[/quote]
The federal government does not have the power to mandate that a person purchase a good or service.

[Winchester]

Welfare and medicaid, which are ongoing attempts to solve social problems for particular individuals at the expense of the taxpayer, do not compare to emergency funds for the general relief of a specific disaster.

[dairygirl4u2c]

maybe on the point specifically, about mandating health care, i agree the constitution doesn't allow it. i find it unconstitutional myself, and just wrong.
but everything else, ditto what i said above.
i can think of two instances at the founding of our country where they spent money on 'benelovence', one being a fire emergency, and another something to do with foriegnors.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 May 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1273683861' post='2109414']
General welfare of the United States does not translate into particular welfare for select individuals. iot does not give the government the power to determine who deserves the wealth one person earns privately.
[/quote]
The general welfare clause is explicated in the later articles. In other words, it does not stand alone as some kind of catchall that gives Congress unlimited power to do whatever whim or fancy may strike a majority of the members at any given moment.

[Winchester]

Again, relief due to an emergency incident. Not to solve social problems.

[Apotheoun]

If the federal government can mandate health insurance it can mandate anything. It can mandate that people - regardless of their ability to do so - buy a house or a car, or any other good or service that the members of Congress may deem helpful to the economy.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Obamacare is the death of constitutional government as envisioned by the founders of our country. Limited government has now been replaced with limitless government.