Liberal Catholics

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='06 May 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1273172561' post='2105946']
You ignored my point completely, I am trying to give an alternative perspective.[/quote]

Your point of Capitalism being politically liberal (if that was the point) made no sense. Political Liberalism today is greatly opposed to Free Market Capitalism, yet has no problem with Crony Capitalism.

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='06 May 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1273172561' post='2105946']But i guess anybody that attempts to bring balance to any sort of discussion will likewise be blackballed by such labels.[/quote]

However liberals do not like capitalism, nor do they like to be defined as liberal. It appeared you did not like captialism, though now that could have been a misunderstanding. So you seemed to be liberal, so what? So I may have been wrong about that ok, I can be wrong about that. No prob.

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='06 May 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1273172561' post='2105946']I just don't like this approach, of a bunch of conservative Catholics, sitting in their little conservative bubble talking smack about a bunch of people they disagree with. I don't think it adds anything to our faith, at least it does little for me. It does not help us to become more charitable, and it does not help us to love Christ. In fact, it can make us so defensive and resistant, that when someone who is liberal actually does espouse a position that is congruent to our universal Catholic doctrine, it becomes policy to undermine that very doctrine by dismissing it mindlessly with more labels.[/quote]

Ah so when it really comes don't to it you will 'label people'. This is nice to know since in invalidates your point against labeling. Anyway it does help to define what actions or beliefs are good or evil, orthodoxy and heterodoxy, traditional or novel, conservative or liberal. What can be defend as liberal is nearly always not in line with the Church and in fact is quite counter to Mother Church. Such as clown masses, women priestess, dancing at mass, or otherwise acting a fool at Mass. The Church has no problem defining and condemning Evil/Heterodoxy/novelties/liberalism, nor do I. Liberalism or Heterodoxy in the Church is a great poison and it does help to define that poison as such. Heterodoxy left unchecked and undefined will not destroy the Church but help dåmn many poor souls to hell.

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='06 May 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1273172561' post='2105946']And maybe, it is precisely these attitudes that have our nation and our Church so polarized. Personally, I go with Jesus when he says that the world must see that we arProxy-Connection: keep-alive
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different, and the only difference I should hope to find in my Church is love.[/quote]

The Church is polarized because of enemies in the Church who love heterodoxy more that orthodoxy are knowingly and unknowingly trying to destroy the Church. They will fail, but not seeing the threat they pose is quite unwise.

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='06 May 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1273172561' post='2105946']Personally, my own opinion is, that nobody is forcing me to be Catholic, or stay Catholic. I mean most people who are so open to unquestionably believe that salvation is quite easy for anyone, even without reference to Christ, still feel compelled to remain Catholic, when our Church seems to hold so many other positions contrary to their own conviction.
[/quote]

A person that believes we can be saved without Christ would be Catholic in name only. And this is a perfect example of why definitions are needed, that believe is heterodoxy and false and needs to be defined as such.

[Winchester]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='06 May 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1273194074' post='2106082']
Your point of Capitalism being politically liberal (if that was the point) made no sense. Political Liberalism today is greatly opposed to Free Market Capitalism, yet has no problem with Crony Capitalism.
[/quote]
A lot of liberals are leftists. The term has become confused.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Winchester' date='06 May 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1273195166' post='2106088']
A lot of liberals are leftists. The term has become confused.
[/quote]

I agree... Liberalism and Leftist Ideology are nearly one and the same today.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='06 May 2010 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1273163308' post='2105871']
I'm sorry my joke offends but liberalism as it is today is very much counter to reason, and a sound mind. When did it become sane to support the murder of millions of babies and when did it become sane to support sodomy which is one of the vile sins on earth?

Much of Liberalism is not sane, and it in fact quite counter to the ordered mind God gave us.
[/quote]
Liberalism is composed of many more things than just those two. those two social aspects of the liberal [i]party[/i] are fairly recent additions.
As well say Conservatism is insane for all of its crazy tacked on social beliefs.

[quote name='Winchester' date='06 May 2010 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1273174268' post='2105960']
Orthodox is a better word. As in "orthodoxy".

Liberalism is heterodox. Because of laziness, liberal Catholic has been confused with political liberals.
[/quote]
if liberalism is heterodox, then conservatism would be homodox?

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='06 May 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1273194074' post='2106082']
However liberals do not like capitalism, nor do they like to be defined as liberal. It appeared you did not like captialism, though now that could have been a misunderstanding. So you seemed to be liberal, so what? So I may have been wrong about that ok, I can be wrong about that. No prob.
[/quote]

most liberals are fairly happy with Capitalism within reason. i like ice cream, but i hardly have to eat a full 2 gallon bucket of it everytime i want some.

[aalpha1989]

You know what is really freaking confusing? Liberalism has been condemned many times by the Church. Classical liberalism- i.e. Locke, Rousseau, Hume, Smith... Liberal democracies and capitalism grew directly out of the works of these men. How can Catholics continue to support liberal democracy and capitalism?

I'm seriously mystified. It seems like Catholics today are living in direct opposition to Church teachings from the late 19th -early 20th centuries. Help?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='06 May 2010 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1273200726' post='2106130']
Liberalism is composed of many more things than just those two. those two social aspects of the liberal [i]party[/i] are fairly recent additions.[/quote]

Yes, I know the word liberal can mean many things. However since the 1960's Political Liberalism has become more and more like Leftism, Socialist.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='06 May 2010 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1273200726' post='2106130']As well say Conservatism is insane for all of its crazy tacked on social beliefs.[/quote]

Well most of those social beliefs are based heavily on Judaeo–Christian values. You may say whatever you'd like but relativism is also condemned, and disordered.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='06 May 2010 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1273200726' post='2106130']most liberals are fairly happy with Capitalism within reason. i like ice cream, but i hardly have to eat a full 2 gallon bucket of it everytime i want some.
[/quote]

That's a unique way of describing a Cafeteria Catholic. Catholicism is all or nothing, it is again after all against relativism.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='06 May 2010 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1273201085' post='2106135']
You know what is really freaking confusing? Liberalism has been condemned many times by the Church. Classical liberalism- i.e. Locke, Rousseau, Hume, Smith... Liberal democracies and capitalism grew directly out of the works of these men. How can Catholics continue to support liberal democracy and capitalism?

I'm seriously mystified. It seems like Catholics today are living in direct opposition to Church teachings from the late 19th -early 20th centuries. Help?
[/quote]

I know that the Church has condemned Liberalism, Socialism, Capitalism without morals, and Crony Capitalism. But I do not believe she has condemned Free Market Capitalism. The Church supports the idea that the faithful have a right to property, and even have a business. Which is one of the reasons Socialism is condemned.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='06 May 2010 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1273204340' post='2106156']

Well most of those social beliefs are based heavily on Judaeo–Christian values. You may say whatever you'd like but relativism is also condemned, and disordered.



That's a unique way of describing a Cafeteria Catholic. Catholicism is all or nothing, it is again after all against relativism.
[/quote]

i was talking about the really crazy ones. you could also say protestant fundamentalism is based heavily on judeo christian values, etc but i still want nothing to do with it.

i would describe cafeteria catholicism less as a 2 gallon bucket of ice cream, but as ordering a banana split and picking out the banana. (which in this particular analogy works well with me, cause i am allergic to bananas )

conservatism and liberalism(classical definitions) are rarely all or nothing. one size does not fit all, just as you cant use a hammer to fix every problem in a house.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='07 May 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1273206334' post='2106172']
i was talking about the really crazy ones. you could also say protestant fundamentalism is based heavily on judeo christian values, etc but i still want nothing to do with it.[/quote]

Oh well Protestantism is also disordered, disorder will only bring more disorder. However many times a fundamentalist say a Southern Baptist has more in common with the Church than an Anglican Protestant.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='07 May 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1273206334' post='2106172']i would describe cafeteria catholicism less as a 2 gallon bucket of ice cream, but as ordering a banana split and picking out the banana. (which in this particular analogy works well with me, cause i am allergic to bananas )[/quote]

Well ok, but Catholicism is all or nothing, and so is truth.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='07 May 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1273206334' post='2106172']conservatism and liberalism(classical definitions) are rarely all or nothing. one size does not fit all, just as you cant use a hammer to fix every problem in a house.
[/quote]

Political ideology of any party is never perfect and have, or had, or will have various disorders.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='06 May 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1273208327' post='2106185']
Oh well Protestantism is also disordered, disorder will only bring more disorder. However many times a fundamentalist say a Southern Baptist has more in common with the Church than an Anglican Protestant.
[quote]

i would say many of the crazy things im referring to that modern conservatives believe or pander to are vastly disordered from whatever they are based on too.

wait a sec, im confused. which do you think has more in common with the Church? southern baptists or anglicans? or do you mean to say something entirely different?

[quote]
Political ideology of any party is never perfect and have, or had, or will have various disorders.
[/quote]

exactly.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='07 May 2010 - 01:12 AM' timestamp='1273209139' post='2106191']
i would say many of the crazy things im referring to that modern conservatives believe or pander to are vastly disordered from whatever they are based on too.

wait a sec, im confused. which do you think has more in common with the Church? southern baptists or anglicans? or do you mean to say something entirely different?[/quote]

Well not Traditional Anglicans, but the ones who have women priestess and bishops, and such. But yes in many ways the Church has more in common with Southern Baptist than liberal Protestant communities.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='07 May 2010 - 01:12 AM' timestamp='1273209139' post='2106191']
exactly.
[/quote]

Liberalism today is vastly more disordered than Conservatism.

Edited May 7, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[organwerke]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='06 May 2010 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1273169471' post='2105915']
According to patristic tradition sin is an illness of the soul or mind (i.e., [i]psyche[/i]), which is why the Church has been called the hospital for sinners, and so even if it is not politically correct in modern society to call sin a psychical or mental disorder, I will stick with the teaching of the Holy Fathers. Grace is the medicine that cures the illness brought on through Adam's disobedience by restoring the proper balance between the natural virtues and the enhypostatic enactment of those virtues by each person.
[/quote]

can you better explain these concepts?
If it is not politically correct to call sin a psychical or mental disorder, how is theologically correct to call, for example, allucinations or epilepsy a sin?

And how can the grace cure, as medicine, these illnesses?
Do you mean the grace of miracles?
Is this kind of grace an "ordinary grace" that is necessary for salvation? (a person who doesn't receive this kind of grace can't save his soul?).

Returning to the main topic, anyway, I would call catholic liberalism simply a heresy.
This is surely theologically correct.
if it is also politically correct...well, I don't know. I'm not very expert in this science, too!

[Bennn]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='07 May 2010 - 04:58 AM' timestamp='1273201085' post='2106135']

I'm seriously mystified. It seems like Catholics today are living in direct opposition to Church teachings from the late 19th -early 20th centuries. Help?
[/quote]

It was prophecied by Pope Leo XIII. You might be interested in reading the full version of the prayer he wrote to Saint Michaël (not the shortened version).

Pax Domini,
Ben

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='06 May 2010 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1273204670' post='2106158']
I know that the Church has condemned Liberalism, Socialism, Capitalism without morals, and Crony Capitalism. But I do not believe she has condemned Free Market Capitalism. The Church supports the idea that the faithful have a right to property, and even have a business. Which is one of the reasons Socialism is condemned.
[/quote]

Capitalism is by definition a liberal economic system. Liberalism has been condemned by the Church.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='07 May 2010 - 01:17 AM' timestamp='1273209460' post='2106192']
Liberalism today is vastly more disordered than Conservatism.
[/quote]

You use the word "liberalism" in reference to "progressivism". There is a difference. Classical liberalism is what gave birth to liberal democracies and to capitalism. I am really struggling. It seems that everyone I trust supports democracy and capitalism, but I cannot help but believe that the very ideas these systems are founded on have been condemned by the Church.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='05 May 2010 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1273035104' post='2105250']
Obviously we respect the people who hold these beliefs, but we needn't respect the beliefs themselves.
[/quote]
To quote Mr. T: I don't hate f[font="Arial"]o[/font]o[font="Arial"]l[/font]s, I pity them.
That includes liberals.

I have no respect for vile and poisonous philosophy of contemporary liberalism, or "progressivism."

Edited May 7, 2010 by Socrates