Liberal Catholics

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='06 May 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1273168161' post='2105903']
...so we can just plead insanity when we stand before the throne of Christ at our judgment?
[/quote]
No, because the healing medicine has been given, and so anyone who refuses the cure will receive his proper end.

It is important to move away from the legalistic understanding of salvation, which only became prominent during the Reformation.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='BG45' date='06 May 2010 - 08:32 AM' timestamp='1273149152' post='2105809']
+1. I have a lot of [b]Pagan[/b] friends,
[/quote]
Those guys are still around?

[Bennn]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='06 May 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1273167773' post='2105899']
The idea that sin is an illness is one of the most prevalent patristic approaches to the human condition, which is why Christ is called the "Great Physician" by many of the Church Fathers (see St. Ignatios of Antioch, [i]Letter to the Ephesians[/i]). [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_grin.gif[/img]
[/quote]


I agree that sin can be defined as an illness, but I also think that there should be a line drawn between spiritual and mental disorder. Spiritual disorder makes you culpable and puts you in danger of going to hell. Mental disorder is something you have not chosen for yourself, and is strongly intertwined with physical illness. When I was undergoing tests in the hospital I was told that my physical illness could have an effect on my mental health, and that I should be tested on that as well for that reason. I do believe that mental illness can be used as a tool by satan to tempt/lead someone into sin, but it should not be unified with it, because the same mental illness can be used by God to sanctify your soul.

Organwerke, thank you for your nice comment. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/happy.gif[/img]

Pax Domini,
Ben

Edited May 6, 2010 by Bennn

[Winchester]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='06 May 2010 - 02:01 PM' timestamp='1273168907' post='2105909']
Those guys are still around?
[/quote]
Not really. The vast majority are in large part Christian, but like to pretend otherwise.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' date='06 May 2010 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1273169151' post='2105912']
Not really. The vast majority are in large part Christian, but like to pretend otherwise.
[/quote]
Sorta exactly the opposite of Unitarians and the United "Church".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Bennn' date='06 May 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1273169121' post='2105911']
I agree that sin can be defined as an illness, but I also think that there should be a line drawn between spiritual and mental disorder. Spiritual disorder makes you culpable and puts you in danger of going to hell. Mental disorder is something you have not chosen for yourself, and is strongly intertwined with physical illness. When I was undergoing tests in the hospital I was told that my physical illness could have an effect on my mental health, and that I should be tested on that as well for that reason. I do believe that mental illness can be used as a tool by satan to tempt/lead someone into sin, but it should not be unified with it, because the same mental illness can be used by God to sanctify your soul.

Organwerke, thank you for your nice comment. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/happy.gif[/img]

Pax Domini,
Ben
[/quote]
According to patristic tradition sin is an illness of the soul or mind (i.e., [i]psyche[/i]), which is why the Church has been called the hospital for sinners, and so even if it is not politically correct in modern society to call sin a psychical or mental disorder, I will stick with the teaching of the Holy Fathers. Grace is the medicine that cures the illness brought on through Adam's disobedience by restoring the proper balance between the natural virtues and the enhypostatic enactment of those virtues by each person.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Apotheoun

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='06 May 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1273163308' post='2105871']
I'm sorry my joke offends but liberalism as it is today is very much counter to reason, and a sound mind. When did it become sane to support the murder of millions of babies and when did it become sane to support sodomy which is one of the vile sins on earth?

Much of Liberalism is not sane, and it in fact quite counter to the ordered mind God gave us.
[/quote]
Ok, look at it from the other side's view. If I don't believe in God, or at least the christian God, my life is mine to do with it what I choose [ desire, feel,emote etc] So my choices and my rights trump anything else. I won't go [shoot anyone, rob a bank, kill a seal] because I am a nice person. However, because my rights triumph everything, a little unborn baby has no rights because its all about me. My parents [ who were divorced, seperated, never married, casual acquaintances, test-tube etc] brought me up that way - cause it was always about me. They chose only to have 2 kids[ polical correctness, and they wanted that Las Vegas vacation every year] and they focused all their attention on making me happy and fulfilled etc so I got everything I wanted. Sexuality was the same way so I was equipped with the pill at an early age, and they were fine as long as I didn't bring a baby home [ so abortion was ok as well]. Because my rights are so important, my friends rights were too, so if they were gay, they had a right to a fulfilled sex life [ as per "will & grace",and all the other gay-themed shows] happily pointed out on a weekly basis. AND anyone who talks about values gets a blank stare - they must be crazy -conservative -right wing gun-toting people clinging to their patristic -evil- guilt-ridden religion. Sin doesn't exist, except to the above mentioned people, so how could they be doing anything wrong?

Its not insanity, its simply upbringing.

[Bennn]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='06 May 2010 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1273169471' post='2105915']
According to patristic tradition sin is an illness of the soul or mind (i.e., [i]psyche[/i]), which is why the Church has been called the hospital for sinners, and so even if it is not politically correct in modern society to call sin a psychical or mental disorder, I will stick with the teaching of the Holy Fathers. Grace is the medicine that cures the illness brought about by Adam's disobedience by restoring the proper balance between the natural virtues and the enhypostatic enactment of those virtues by each person. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_grin.gif[/img]
[/quote]

But surely you don't mean that, for example, being schizophrenic is intrinsically a sin? It is the result of the original sin committed by our first parents. Like yourself, I could care less about political correctness, but somehow I don't think that the venerable Fathers would define being mentally ill as sinful. Something is only subjectively a sin when it is done deliberately. Personally, I would rather see a saint in someone who carries the cross of mental ilness with the grace of God, than a sinner.

Pax Domini,
Ben

Edited May 6, 2010 by Bennn

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Bennn' date='06 May 2010 - 12:18 PM' timestamp='1273169897' post='2105926']
But surely you don't mean that, for example, being schizophrenic is intrinsically a sin? It is the result of the original sin committed by our first parents. Like yourself, I could care less about political correctness, but somehow I don't think that the venerable Fathers would define being mentally ill as sinful. Something is only sujectively a sin when it is done deliberately.

Pax Domini,
Ben
[/quote]
All human disorders are caused by the fall (physical illness, schizophrenia, disordered attractions and passions, etc.); nevertheless, culpability for the various things that afflict man varies depending upon the enactment of the will, i.e., its engagement or lack thereof in a given case. Grace can cure all the disorders suffered by humanity and does so by restoring man to his proper natural and psychical condition.

[Socrates]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='06 May 2010 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1273169854' post='2105923']
Ok, look at it from the other side's view. If I don't believe in God, or at least the christian God, my life is mine to do with it what I choose [ desire, feel,emote etc] So my choices and my rights trump anything else. I won't go [shoot anyone, rob a bank, kill a seal] because I am a nice person. However, because my rights triumph everything, a little unborn baby has no rights because its all about me. My parents [ who were divorced, seperated, never married, casual acquaintances, test-tube etc] brought me up that way - cause it was always about me. They chose only to have 2 kids[ polical correctness, and they wanted that Las Vegas vacation every year] and they focused all their attention on making me happy and fulfilled etc so I got everything I wanted. Sexuality was the same way so I was equipped with the pill at an early age, and they were fine as long as I didn't bring a baby home [ so abortion was ok as well]. Because my rights are so important, my friends rights were too, so if they were gay, they had a right to a fulfilled sex life [ as per "will & grace",and all the other gay-themed shows] happily pointed out on a weekly basis. AND anyone who talks about values gets a blank stare - they must be crazy -conservative -right wing gun-toting people clinging to their patristic -evil- guilt-ridden religion. Sin doesn't exist, except to the above mentioned people, so how could they be doing anything wrong?

Its not insanity, its simply upbringing.
[/quote]
One's upbringing can be insane.

Modern liberalism is systematically taught madness, and would be readily recognized as such by most in prior ages.

[Bennn]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='06 May 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1273170187' post='2105929']
All human disorders are caused by the fall (physical illness, schizophrenia, disordered attractions and passions, etc.); nevertheless, culpability for the various things that afflict man varies depending upon the enactment of the will, i.e., its engagement or lack thereof in a given case. Grace can cure all the disorders suffered by humanity and does so by restoring man to his proper natural and psychical condition.
[/quote]

I agree that all human disorder comes from the fall. What I was trying to say, though, is that it only becomes spiritual when there is deliberate consent of the will.

Pax Domini,
Ben

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Bennn' date='06 May 2010 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1273170805' post='2105934']
I agree that all human disorder comes from the fall. What I was trying to say, though, is that it only becomes spiritual when there is deliberate consent of the will.

Pax Domini,
Ben
[/quote]
Which is why I spoke of culpability related to the enactment of the will, but even if the will is not engaged the illness comes from the fall and will be healed through grace (even if the healing only occurs in the eschaton for some individuals).

Edited May 6, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 May 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1273006926' post='2104988']
Capitalism is not part of leftist liberal ideology, leftist liberal ideology is opposed to capitalism. Though it does support crony capitalism. I'm not sure about you but most who don't like 'labels' like liberal or leftist or the ones that don't like the idea that liberalism is a mental disorder are probably liberals themselves.
[/quote]

You ignored my point completely, I am trying to give an alternative perspective.

The irony is, that it does not make me agree with so called liberal Catholics, or those who wish to undermine the significance of Tradition, Episcopal Authority, Absolute Truth, or any of that. It is ironic that these labels, that are meant to define politics, have become so common on parlance by those who seem to fit the bill, and those who dislike them all the same, and those labels become even more absolute then the position in and of itself.

But i guess anybody that attempts to bring balance to any sort of discussion will likewise be blackballed by such labels. I just don't like this approach, of a bunch of conservative Catholics, sitting in their little conservative bubble talking smack about a bunch of people they disagree with. I don't think it adds anything to our faith, at least it does little for me. It does not help us to become more charitable, and it does not help us to love Christ. In fact, it can make us so defensive and resistant, that when someone who is liberal actually does espouse a position that is congruent to our universal Catholic doctrine, it becomes policy to undermine that very doctrine by dismissing it mindlessly with more labels.

And maybe, it is precisely these attitudes that have our nation and our Church so polarized. Personally, I go with Jesus when he says that the world must see that we are different, and the only difference I should hope to find in my Church is love.

Personally, my own opinion is, that nobody is forcing me to be Catholic, or stay Catholic. I mean most people who are so open to unquestionably believe that salvation is quite easy for anyone, even without reference to Christ, still feel compelled to remain Catholic, when our Church seems to hold so many other positions contrary to their own conviction.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='06 May 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1273172561' post='2105946']
I just don't like this approach, of a bunch of conservative Catholics, sitting in their little conservative bubble talking smack about a bunch of people they disagree with.[/quote]

...i wonder if they think "self-righteousness" is a mental illness, too?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='06 May 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1273172561' post='2105946']
I just don't like this approach, of a bunch of conservative Catholics, sitting in their little conservative bubble talking smack about a bunch of people they disagree with. [/quote]
Orthodox is a better word. As in "orthodoxy".

Liberalism is heterodox. Because of laziness, liberal Catholic has been confused with political liberals.