Arizona Immigration Bill

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='havok579257' date='02 May 2010 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1272778818' post='2103533']
do you honestly think the cops will question the immigration status of EVERYONE they question for breaking the law? i have a feeling they will not be questioning the average white or black american. i have a feeling they will be mostly questioning the mexican looking people. sure they will question enough white and black american's so to hit a quota as to not be blatently racist, but the majority who will be questioned will be mexican american's. i absolutly hate hate hate hate when people race bait about everything. i will rarley ever claim racism on anything because for the most part i believe politicians make most of the cases up to generate votes. although this law does stink of racism. its racism because mexican looking people are going to be singled out. anyone who thinks different is living in a fantasy world. this part of it makes the law evil. sure, there are a lot of mexican looking people who are illegals, but there are just as many who are legal. singling out a single race is wrong. the cops will be looking extra hard at anyone who looks mexican. mexican looking people will be getting question for all sorts of minor offenses. i can just seen numerous people being questioned over jay walking or littering or other such minor offenses. offenses so minor the cops would not even bother questioning people if this law was not in effect.


taxpayer money? blame the immigarants? ha, blame the politicians. anyone who blames the immigrants has no clue. blame the politcians. the tax system in this country is antiqueted. we need a fair tax. its basically the thing that winchester said. then there would be no such thing as illegal immigrants. every single person would be paying the same taxes be them born or not born in america.
[/quote]

Man don't take this as an offense against you, but this is a ridiculous post. The average white or black American is here legally, I doubt they would be questioned at all, the ones who will be questioned are those who can not show identification, like a valid drivers license. They will not only check "mexican looking people" they will check any foreigner who is unable to produce documentation of their right to be here. The spanish come here to work, the illegals among the most dangerous are those who come here for terrorism. My wife is 100% Irish as I am, she has the classic Irish looks, no not the red hair which came from the vikings which is rare in Ireland as it is here, she has the coal black hair and olive colored skin with the dark eyes, funny thing is many mexicans and cubans think she of their ethnicity and try to talk to her in their language. A fair tax would be a great thing, a standard set tax that everyone has to pay, this will never happen as about 50% of americans pay no taxes, they have been programmed to beleive that the evil producers of wealth should pay large tax rates and the moochers of society should pay little or nothing, that is what keeps the liberal politicians in office. Even with a fair tax we would still have illegals coming here illegally, not for work but to destroy america and its citizens, people seem to forget that we are in a war, a war declared by radicals with the intent on killing all who will not submit to their god. as for singling out a single race as being wrong, since not many other races are causing problems here what do think would be fair, to stop all white people, say a mini van with a mom dad and the 2.3 children and the family pet and let the obviously foreign person go on their way? Or as the law states in Arizona check the legal status of those who are already, by their actions, determined to be criminalsand decide whether they are to be put through the court system or given a free trip back to Guatemala?

ed

[Anomaly]

[quote name='God the Father' date='01 May 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1272763221' post='2103398']
If Mexicans want to consume in my community and provide labor for market value, I am sincerely grateful. If they fail to pay taxes to a bloated, criminally inefficient nanny state, I am proud of them because it constitutes a statement I'd never have the guts to make. If they escape the crime, violence, guinea worms, etc. of Mexico and find save haven in America, I wish them and their families all the best because they've probably had a pretty rough time of it up to now.

But a large group of white people who've gotten fat of the dollar of the workers, consumers, investors, and employers who are actually contributing to something writing up ANOTHER law that gives MORE power to the "executive branch" at the expense of any human being trying to make a living? That should be a crime.
[/quote]Jimminy Cricket, this is as naive as lillabett's cry to tear down the borders. My grandparents came here in a boat, my wife came here in a boat, my nephew was born in Guatamala, my cousin is married to an Argentinaian, my godson was born in Viet Nam, my brother-in-law is a first generation Iraqi American (his parents came here in the 60's), my dad has helped people defect and escape to this country (technically almost an illegal alein).
Still, they're all entirely different from the MILLIONS of illegal immigrants that are crossing the border from the south. While the majority of them simply want a better life, the scale of the problem makes it possible for drug smugglers to take advantage of the border chaos, provides opportunity for unscrupolous 'coyotes' to charge outrageous fees and transport people dangrously, provides opportunity for criminals to mix in an prey on others in America, and provides illegally cheap labor to greedy business owners who compete with companies who follow the laws and pay proper wages.

The laws protect people with legal status here. Illegal aliens do not have that type of protection. The Arizona law also fines business owners $1,000 for every illegal they hire, and if they have more than 10, it's a felony. If you are knowingly transporting illegals or hiring persons from the back of a truck, (a tatic for temporary employment "off the books"), your vehicle is subject to immediate impoundment.
Solid borders and reform to provide 6 month 'Worker's Visas' are what is needed, but that will never happen because any law enforcement will generate naive 'rascist' claims from the left. Sorry, but we don't have 8 million Canadians illegally crossing the border, providing cover for 300,000 criminals and drug smugglers bringing ICE. If that were the case, we'd be asking for immigration status of every person who said 'eh' and knew who Red Green is.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Anomaly

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='02 May 2010 - 07:53 AM' timestamp='1272804838' post='2103581']
Still, they're all entirely different from the MILLIONS of illegal immigrants that are crossing the border from the south. While the majority of them simply want a better life, the scale of the problem makes it possible for drug smugglers to take advantage of the border chaos, provides opportunity for unscrupolous 'coyotes' to charge outrageous fees and transport people dangrously, provides opportunity for criminals to mix in an prey on others in America, and provides illegally cheap labor to greedy business owners who compete with companies who follow the laws and pay proper wages.[/quote]

Drug smugglers are causing violence? Coyotes, causing violence? What makes their professions so lucrative that they're willing to resort to violence, Anomaly? Lamp importers aren't violent. Bus drivers aren't violent.

Drug smugglers and coyotes are willing to engage in violence for the same reason that the gangsters of the 1920's did: the unnecessary, counterproductive prohibition makes it lucrative to use as much violence is necessary to transport prohibited drugs or transport prohibited people. The alcohol-related violence is gone now, because the destruction of prohibition made violence non-lucrative. Intrinsically non-aggressive actions should not be prohibited. Especially intrinsically moral actions, such as walking from one place to another for work.

Do you want to actually solve a real problem? Focus on making sure that immigrants, (and everyone[i] else[/i] living here, who [i]equally[/i] have absolutely no right to welfare money stolen from non-violent people) do not take welfare. If you can't stem the problem that is State welfare, you'll never stem immigration for welfare. If you don't fill the trough, people will stop coming to eat from it. Politicians [i]have[/i] to fill the trough with your money. They have a dependent voter base that they need to [i]keep[/i] dependent.

But I don't think most people are concerned about "they're coming here to get welfare, and they don't pay taxes!" If this were truly their concern, they would logically have to arrest 50% of the black population and a substantial portion of white people, as well. No, it's not about "injustice," or "the principle" of people getting welfare or not paying taxes. But that would be logically consistent and therefore racist. And of course, this isn't about racism. This is about brown people who talk funny.

If getting welfare while not paying taxes is immoral, be logically consistent. There is no difference between one person who was born in one geographic area and takes welfare handouts and doesn't pay taxes, and another person who was born in a different geographic area, then [i]moves[/i] here and takes welfare handouts and doesn't pay taxes. Neither group of people has [i]any[/i] claim to [i]any [/i]right to welfare handouts.

~Sternhauser

Edited May 2, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Maggyie]

This is a stupid, stupid law. What exactly are they going to do with the people they arrest for being here without papers? I guess keep them in jail? Right. We can't afford to keep people convicted with drug charges in prison but we can sure find room (and about a billion dollars) for millions more non-violent offenders whose only issue is that they are in the wrong part of geography without the required paperwork. Meanwhile, the families they brought with them can just starve since the main breadwinner is in prison... or I guess they'll have to go on welfare so the kids at least can keep body and soul together.

Or, I guess after arresting them, we would deport them. Well, guess what, that's what we do now, and after you are done deporting them they slip back through the border and the cycle starts all over again.

Everyone says, "enforce current law, that's all we want." Well, the current law smells of elderberries, it's not economically practical and it's unjust and that's why it's not working.

Look for the Church to come out swinging big time against this law and any similar ones that pop up.

[ThePenciledOne]

I just think its de-humanizing.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='30 April 2010 - 08:54 PM' timestamp='1272678850' post='2102959']
In my opinion, it does not, and this seems to be a slippery slope.
Should the law let Catholics off easy, just for being Catholic? Should non-Catholics/non-Christians be punished more severely than Catholics are for similar crimes? Where does it end?

If you want to enter this country, do it legally.
[/quote]

Thank you, my point was unclear. I am not proposing that Catholics get special treatment. I am proposing, that as Catholics, we consider how important it would be to help integrate and be hospitable to foreigners.
For one, all the documents and birth certificates and the like that our government requires to validate entry, are often times set up indeed to make it difficult for certain people to get in. Yeah difficult for terrorists, at least that is what they say. For many people who have lived in Mexico, all these documents, that are built into our whole system of life, just do not make sense. To suggest to an immigrant, (who already knows from experience that dealing with politics is too messy, precisely because politics is already corrupt) That they need said documents, documents that make no sense, only suggests more corruption. I personally think, that we as a Church, called to visit Christ the prisoner, called to feed Christ the hungry, called to give drink to Christ the thirsty, called to clothe the poor naked Christ, I think we as a Church need to find a way to help people who have good cause to come to this country, so that they can have the resources that they need, and on the one hand, calling our legislatures to craft laws in terms of helping those with good intention.

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='01 May 2010 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1272745437' post='2103247']
I hate to burst your bubble, but the Arizona law has no stipulations in it to pull any body over for looking mexican, or iranian or any other ethnicity or color. This law clearly states it is only for the people who have been already lawfully stopped by law enforcement agents. This means if you have already broken the law and therefore by your illegal actions have forced the law enforcement types to have detained you for your criminal act, then they must determine if you are here legally, that way they can deport you instead of having you as an illegal pay bail to get out of jail and then disappear while there is a trial set up for you which you do not show up for as you are a criminal to begin with, further tying up the legal system and wasting tons of time and taxpayers monies.

ed
[/quote]

Yeah, but I know police, and I know they will look for excuses to harass people they perceive as suspicious. The law opens possibilities which implicate incredible injustice for Mexicans, and legal American citizens. "We didn't cross the border, the border crossed us"

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Maggie' date='02 May 2010 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1272822997' post='2103656']
Look for the Church to come out swinging big time against this law and any similar ones that pop up.
[/quote]

Well look, She already has, through the US Bishops
[url="http://blog.archny.org/?p=652"]Archbishop Timothy Dolan[/url] responds almost immediately.
and through the US Bishops committee on migration on [url="http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2010/10-080.shtml"]USCCB.org[/url]

[KnightofChrist]

The Church has not, she cannot violate the truth that we can never do evil so good may come from it. Some of her Bishops have but she does not ask her faithful to support the criminal actions of lawbreakers, nor does she support her faithful to break the law, and become criminals. We act as if the United States does not allow immigration. She does, her immigration laws are some of the most open in the entire world. Now Arizona who has done nothing but copy the federal law asks that immigrates from our southern border OBEY the same immigration laws that everyone else in the world who wishes to become US citizens obey. The Church does not support disobedience and criminal activity. Illegal immigration is a criminal offense, a open border that just allows any old body through is national suicide and foolish. The Untied States allows immigration all that she asks is that those wishing to become citizens obey her sovereign laws.

Edited May 2, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Resurrexi]

The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth, as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice bless'd;
It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway,
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this—
That in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer, doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much,
To mitigate the justice of thy plea,
Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 May 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1272837794' post='2103773']
The Church has not, she cannot violate the truth that we can never do evil so good may come from it. Some of her Bishops have but she does not ask her faithful to support the criminal actions of lawbreakers, nor does she support her faithful to break the law, and become criminals. We act as if the United States does not allow immigration. She does, her immigration laws are some of the most open in the entire world. Now Arizona who has done nothing but copy the federal law asks that immigrates from our southern border OBEY the same immigration laws that everyone else in the world who wishes to become US citizens obey. The Church does not support disobedience and criminal activity. Illegal immigration is a criminal offense, a open border that just allows any old body through is national suicide and foolish. The Untied States allows immigration all that she asks is that those wishing to become citizens obey her sovereign laws.
[/quote]

Why do people still cling to the belief that the same politicians who pass "laws" that support abortion and "partnership" benefits for people who partake in sodomy have any claim to intellectual or moral authority when it comes to determining what is moral? Or what a "law" is? They've got nuclear weapons pointed at civilian cities. Their livelihood comes from forcing people to do things by violence. The Church is infallible. Politicians are not.

Those hiding Jews were "lawbreakers." Those helping smuggle slaves to freedom were "lawbreakers."

The Church [i]has[/i] supported disobedience to those who have no right to command something. The Church [i]has[/i] supported "criminal" behavior. [i]Christians[/i] [i]were[/i] "criminals!"

There's more to a "crime" than doing something that is prohibited by politicians. Nobody's rights are violated by the simple act of crossing a political border to work. [i]They commit no crime by doing so. [/i]

~Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='02 May 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1272844389' post='2103828']
Why do people still cling to the belief that the same politicians who pass "laws" that support abortion and "partnership" benefits for people who partake in sodomy have any claim to intellectual or moral authority when it comes to determining what is moral? Or what a "law" is? They've got nuclear weapons pointed at civilian cities. Their livelihood comes from forcing people to do things by violence. The Church is infallible. Politicians are not.

Those hiding Jews were "lawbreakers." Those helping smuggle slaves to freedom were "lawbreakers."

The Church [i]has[/i] supported disobedience to those who have no right to command something. The Church [i]has[/i] supported "criminal" behavior. [i]Christians[/i] [i]were[/i] "criminals!"

There's more to a "crime" than doing something that is prohibited by politicians. Nobody's rights are violated by the simple act of crossing a political border to work. [i]They commit no crime by doing so. [/i]

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


To untwist your rather charged question... Why do people still believe in the rule of just law? Because we are not archaists, which is an heresy according to the Church. As is typical with debates with you, you twist and mix unjust law with just laws.

Edited May 3, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[dominicansoul]

I don't believe the Church is asking us to break laws, but rather, the Bishops who speak out against laws like the one in Arizona, are speaking out against the harrasment and the bigotry which will be prevalent in enforcing the law...

...already, we are asked to look at illegal immigrants as "different..." already we are asked to see them as "criminals." We need to re-read that part of the Gospel, where Jesus tells us how to act toward the aliens living amongst us...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='02 May 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1272845811' post='2103836']
I don't believe the Church is asking us to break laws, but rather, the Bishops who speak out against laws like the one in Arizona, are speaking out against the harrasment and the bigotry which will be prevalent in enforcing the law...[/quote]


This is painting and condemning law enforcement with a wide bush. And it is a stereotypical [b]racist[/b] view of those in law enforcement.

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='02 May 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1272845811' post='2103836']...already, we are asked to look at illegal immigrants as "different..." already we are asked to see them as "criminals." We need to re-read that part of the Gospel, where Jesus tells us how to act toward the aliens living amongst us...
[/quote]

Illegal is what makes them criminals, [b]they've broken the law[/b] and while the should be treated humanely they should not be rewarded by their criminal behavior as if they have not broken the law! Without the law there is only chaos. There should be respect for all people as Christ teaches, yet there should also be a respect for the law. Respect by those that are citizens, and those who wish to become citizens. Persons who enter this nation with disregard to our laws have no respect for our law. The current open border with Mexico is itself racist compared to the rest of the world. The rest of the world has to follow the law if they want to become American Citizens, but the majority that cross the border with Mexico, who are Mexicans do not have to follow that law because it seems their Mexican. Someone doesn't get to break the law just because there Mexican.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 May 2010 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1272847031' post='2103849']
This is painting and condemning law enforcement with a wide bush. And it is a stereotypical [b]racist[/b] view of those in law enforcement.



Illegal is what makes them criminals, [b]they've broken the law[/b] and while the should be treated humanely they should not be rewarded by their criminal behavior as if they have not broken the law! Without the law there is only chaos. There should be respect for all people as Christ teaches, yet there should also be a respect for the law. Respect by those that are citizens, and those who wish to become citizens. Persons who enter this nation with disregard to our laws have no respect for our law. The current open border with Mexico is itself racist compared to the rest of the world. The rest of the world has to follow the law if they want to become American Citizens, but the majority that cross the border with Mexico, who are Mexicans do not have to follow that law because it seems their Mexican. Someone doesn't get to break the law just because there Mexican.
[/quote]

i think I'll stick to the Bishops on this one...

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='02 May 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1272847256' post='2103852']
i think I'll stick to the Bishops on this one...
[/quote]

Since when is their opinion infallible?