Arizona Immigration Bill

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='30 April 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1272681891' post='2102981']
Violent crime in 1920's Chicago was committed by gangsters, it's true. It's also true that the crime wasn't eradicated by killing or otherwise directly stopping the gangsters. It was eradicated by legalizing moral and/or non-violent behavior. [/quote]

Violent crime has been eradicated in Chicago??? I and about three million other people must not have gotten the memo....

Edited May 3, 2010 by Norseman82

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='30 April 2010 - 01:47 AM' timestamp='1272606477' post='2102543']


Leviticus 19:33-34


[sup]33[/sup] " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. [sup]34[/sup] The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
[/quote]

But at that time, weren't the aliens living in the land with them native born-Canaanites whom the Israelites conquered? So, the equivalent here would be the Mexicans who lived in the southwest in territory gained by the US in the Mexican-American War and the Gadsen Purchase.

[havok579257]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='02 May 2010 - 11:03 PM' timestamp='1272855837' post='2103975']
Erin.

The police have to see something suspicious before they can just jump to conclusions. Like I said before, a man lurking about an alley in a high crime area is going to be asked for his paperwork. A couple strolling through the public park at noon on a Sunday is not.
[/quote]


a couple strolling is ideally not going to be questioned. name me one time a law was enforced strictly as it was written? meaning, how many people do you think get tickets for jaywalking in the united states? not a lot. now techincally its a law. i can see police start giving tickets to people for jaywalking just so they can question their immigration status. there are so many minor ticky tack laws that police can use then to question someone who looks illegal. if the speed limit is 45mph, a cop could pull you over for going 46mph just so he can question your immigration status. now normally he would not pull over anyone for going 1mph over the speed limit, but now he will since he has the right to question your immigration status.

its absolutly nieve to think this law will not be abused. cops are normal people just like you and me. they all sin. cops who are against illegals being in america will start finding every minor offense to put on people just so they can question their immigration status.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

I live in Arizona....

[havok579257]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 May 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1272852453' post='2103924']
People who want an open border should also take the same policy to heart. They should take the doors off their houses and allow ANYONE in, and then they should pay for their food and health care.
[/quote]


well that's a dumb argument i have heard for keeping illegals out. i guess if you help a homeless man you should also do the same things as above since a homeless man pays for none of those things either.


open boarders would not be a problem with the fair tax. how about instead of getting mad at illegals who come to america for a better life for themselfs and their children you get made at ALL politicians for using the out dated tax system we have in america. thats the real problem.

Edited May 3, 2010 by havok579257

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='havok579257' date='03 May 2010 - 12:01 AM' timestamp='1272859267' post='2104009']
its absolutly nieve to think this law will not be abused. cops are normal people just like you and me. they all sin. cops who are against illegals being in america will start finding every minor offense to put on people just so they can question their immigration status.
[/quote]

Never said the law would not be abused. If your argument against the Arizona law is that it will be abused, then there is no sense in having any law in this country.

[quote name='havok579257' date='03 May 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1272859718' post='2104016']
open boarders would not be a problem with the fair tax. how about instead of getting mad at illegals who come to america for a better life for themselfs and their children you get made at ALL politicians for using the out dated tax system we have in america. thats the real problem.
[/quote]

It is naive for you to assume that all illegal immigrants are innocent people looking for a better life.

[havok579257]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 May 2010 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1272860224' post='2104025']
Never said the law would not be abused. If your argument against the Arizona law is that it will be abused, then there is no sense in having any law in this country.



It is naive for you to assume that all illegal immigrants are innocent people looking for a better life.
[/quote]


i don't assume that all illegals are innocent and looking for a better life. i would say at least over half are innocent and looking for a better life. i just thinks its wrong to throw someone back into a hell hole of a life when all they are trying to do is make a better life for them and their family. its not like its even remotely easy to become a legal immigrant in america. what would you do if you were in thier situation. if you lived in a horrible country which was unsafe for you and your children but the country you tried to flee to was near impossible to get into legally. would you just stay where your at and pray your family is not killled because of your inaction or would you take action and try to keep your family safe?

i could understand your argument if legal immigration were not so hard to get. but when we make it so hard to beomce legal immigrants, what do you expect?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='havok579257' date='03 May 2010 - 01:08 AM' timestamp='1272859718' post='2104016']
well that's a dumb argument i have heard for keeping illegals out. i guess if you help a homeless man you should also do the same things as above since a homeless man pays for none of those things either.


open boarders would not be a problem with the fair tax. how about instead of getting mad at illegals who come to america for a better life for themselfs and their children you get made at ALL politicians for using the out dated tax system we have in america. thats the real problem.
[/quote]
You volenteer to give food to the homeless man. He doesn't come into your house and expect to be fed and treated like a non-criminal.

American tax policy is NOT the source of illegal immigration. It's pure greed on the part of the Mexicans. They're coming here for $$ that their government/society/culture excludes them from. They're living in a more corrupt system than what they're finding in the US.

My grandparents came here on a boat despite the dangers and prejudice they faced. Some of their brothers and sisters (my great aunts & uncles)and neices and nephews died trying to come here. Their motivation was still greed, looking for a better life than what they were finding in government controlled economies.

If capitalism and democracy are so evil, fundamentally morally flawed, morally superior Catholics should be doing everything they can to prevent others from losing their lives or breaking up their families to follow the path of error.

[Maggyie]

There is probably not one bishop in the United States who would support this law. I am trying to think of one and coming up empty. Some of the most conservative bishops are the most fervent in supporting and defending the human rights of the undocumented.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Maggie' date='03 May 2010 - 08:52 AM' timestamp='1272891128' post='2104137']
There is probably not one bishop in the United States who would support this law. I am trying to think of one and coming up empty. Some of the most conservative bishops are the most fervent in supporting and defending the human rights of the undocumented.
[/quote]


...because the human rights of the undocumented trumps their "illegal" status...


[quote name='dominicansoul' date='02 May 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1272847256' post='2103852']
i think I'll stick to the Bishops on this one...
[/quote]

I trust their opinions, (especially Bishop Dolan's...)

[Ephrem Augustine]

Dude, Cholos are not Mexican...
they are as American as apple pie and baseball.
When I went to Mexico, I told them I was from LA, they laughed and asked about the cholos, because cholos are a distinctly mexican american phenomenon. There are so many stereotypes being thrown out here its ridiculous.
I know Hispanic, Mexican Americans who have been in this country longer than my family has, "We did not cross the border, the border crossed us."

As for our Bishops, not one is supporting anarchy. They are prophetically questioning the validity of these laws, crafted by human minds. Knight of Christ you are using so many abstract principles that do not even seem to touch on the reality here. You are using so many broad and sweeping generalizations that associate all undocumented with crime, and all attempts to question the justice behind this law as anarchy. You my friend, are playing the straw man card, AND IT IS NOT GOING TO BE TOLERATED. check your logic homey, and please, more importantly check your charity.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Ephrem Augustine

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='03 May 2010 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1272892282' post='2104142']
...because the human rights of the undocumented trumps their "illegal" status...




I trust their opinions, (especially Bishop Dolan's...)
[/quote]
Right!!!! Trust the opinions of the Bishops. That's always worked. How many here trust Cardinal Mahoney's opinion of church design and protocol at Mass? You can't trust the Bishops to properly use Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers or see that the faithful are properly catechized, things that are in the realm of their expertise. But these moral icons are going to pass judgement on applying the law. Follow the money. Of course they'll curry favor with the immigrants because while working here in the US, they can still tithe to the local parish.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='03 May 2010 - 09:52 AM' timestamp='1272894776' post='2104153']
Dude, Cholos are not Mexican...
they are as American as apple pie and baseball.
When I went to Mexico, I told them I was from LA, they laughed and asked about the cholos, because cholos are a distinctly mexican american phenomenon. There are so many stereotypes being thrown out here its ridiculous.
I know Hispanic, Mexican Americans who have been in this country longer than my family has, "We did not cross the border, the border crossed us."
[/quote]

thanx for correcting me and making that distinction. i just assumed "cholo" was a mexican gangsta, either from here or from across the border...



[quote]"We did not cross the border, the border crossed us."[/quote]





[size="1"]oh...and I'm not a dude
[/size]

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='03 May 2010 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1272895454' post='2104156']
Right!!!! Trust the opinions of the Bishops. That's always worked. How many here trust Cardinal Mahoney's opinion of church design and protocol at Mass? You can't trust the Bishops to properly use Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers or see that the faithful are properly catechized, things that are in the realm of their expertise. But these moral icons are going to pass judgement on applying the law. Follow the money. Of course they'll curry favor with the immigrants because while working here in the US, they can still tithe to the local parish.
[/quote]


this seems to be the opinion of many outside the church....that the bishops are hungry for the immigrants money, and that's the only reason they speak out...

I honestly don't think that this is the case...most of the immigrants I know are very poor, and belong to very poor parishes...

...and yes, all those prime examples you use are not areas where I trust the judgements of men, but only give it to God and let Him worry about those things...


...but in this case...I'm going to stick with their opinion...more than that of some phatmassers...even though many of their arguments are very, very good...

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='03 May 2010 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1272895885' post='2104160']
...but in this case...I'm going to stick with their opinion...more than that of some phatmassers...even though many of their arguments are very, very good...
[/quote]

You are sticking with their opinion because it is your opinion. Do you agree with every opinion a Bishop has? No. Do you have to? No. I just get irritated when someone pulls the "Oh I am listening to the Bishop on this one" as if, since it is a Bishop, that opinion is morally right or morally superior. Listening to a Bishop's personal opinion is very selective and subjective. Unless you agree with every single opinion of every single Bishop, of course.