Solid Catholic Colleges And Universities

[ilovechrist]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='04 May 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1273009150' post='2105037']
Just because a school is committed to orthodoxy doesn't mean that arguments against it are never brought up. It isn't as if one is "brain-washed" to blindly following the Church. If you want to know why they believe what they do, chances are good that they'll be able to confidently answer you intelligently.
[/quote]

Excellent way of putting it. Here at Belmont Abbey College, the Benedictine tradition of the Monastery instills a mindset very similar to what you describe in a commitment to orthodoxy. The teaching here (we also have a Great Books program as you described in the rest of your post) follows in correlation, as much of our academics tries to achieve a balanced approach to ensure that those wishing to learn about the Faith and the many classical traditions may do so by making an active individual choice to embrace it. While we may be listed on the Newman Guide (which I know can be a good thing in some eyes, a bad thing in others), I encourage everyone to inquire and get more information about the College, for there is much more than meets the eye--in a good way. As a Senior preparing to graduate in two weeks, I wouldn't trade my experience here for anything.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maggie' date='04 May 2010 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1273008123' post='2105016']
However in some respects they are worrisome as part of a trend... there is not just a Catholic bubble, but an "orthodox" Catholic cultural bubble, and I think people sometimes choose a school that has been [b]labeled [/b]"orthodox" because they are comfortable with the bubble and want to stay there.
[/quote]
I meant to add that I find the trend of persons and institutions calling themselves "Catholic," yet blatantly opposing many key truths of the Faith, and the widespread loss of Faith among the current generations far, far more worrisome than any of your perceived problems with an "orthodox bubble" (whatever exactly that means).

Yes, I'm sure you can find plenty of problems and defects with orthodox Catholics and orthodox Catholic schools, as you can with [i]any[/i] group of fallen, fallible human beings. I know, I've been there.
However, these problems are miniscule in comparison with the problems of the modern secular world at large, and the loss of faith wrought by so-called "liberal Catholicism."
And let's face it, if so many Catholic schools hadn't lost the faith and become Catholic-in-name-only, there would be no need for different distinctly orthodox colleges.
Energy would be much better spent defending and building up Catholic orthodoxy, rather than knit-picking, deriding and tearing down those who work to promote orthodox Catholic teaching, or study the same.

[quote name='Maggie' date='05 May 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1273065419' post='2105338']
As I said, I think students at schools on the list DO learn to use critical thinking skills and take intellectual risks. I don't think orthodox Catholics are mindless sheep, I am one myself. But some people (or their parents) want to spend four years - or even their entire lives - in a Truth Cocoon, as opposed to people who go to an "orthodox" school to learn theology or for fellowship purposes, which I think are valid reasons.[/quote]
Don't know exactly what you mean by a "Truth Cocoon" and I don't think that's a fair characterization for those who wish to study at a place where authentic Catholic teaching is taught. Is it somehow preferable to spend four years in a "falsehood coccoon"? It's not like students at orthodox colleges will never ever encounter any opposition in their lives.
I know of nobody who's spent their entire life at an orthodox college (other than one individual who's been an employee of the college since graduation, and has actually done a lot of good and helped a lot of people in his life).
Students graduate after four years, move out, get jobs and raise families in the "real world" like everybody else. And they have a much better record of keeping the Faith than most.

I really don't see the point in making blanket judgments about the interior motivations students might have for attending such schools. It would be no more accurate nor productive for me to accuse those who attend unorthodox colleges of simply not caring about the Faith and wanting simply to spend four years (or the rest of their lives) boozing and partying.

And if you're going to criticize orthodox colleges as "truth cocoons," what about orthodox convents and monasteries? The Vatican?

[quote]There are plenty of problems with the "orthodox" movement today and I am not the only one who has noticed some issues.

*Orthodoxy experienced as an ideology (this is pure evil, by the way)
*Orthodoxy as an aesthetic
*Orthodoxy as a liturgical style
*Orthodoxy as a wing of the Church with its own leaders, media and spokesmen (see RealCatholic TV. As in, he is presenting "Real" Catholicism, anything to the contrary is false)
*Orthodoxy as a weapon or instrument for punishment
*Orthodoxy as a tool of group cohesion (us vs. the heterodox enemy. Probably a major reason why "orthodox" Catholics sometimes feel more kinship with conservative Protestants than they do with "liberal" Catholics)
*Orthodoxy as a particular required lifestyle or behavior pattern

These mutations of orthodoxy can probably only thrive in an era in which true orthodoxy has been lacking at many levels of the Church.
[/quote]
Again, you can find plenty of problems and issues with absolutely any group of people, and quite frankly I think much of your critique is vague, nonsensical (orthodoxy as a weapon?) or simply wrong-headed.

It seems many of your problems boil down to you not liking the fact that many orthodox Catholics are politically and/or culturally conservative.
That's fine, you don't have to like my politics or cultural/liturgical preferences; chances are I don't much care for yours either. However, I certainly don't think being a conservative or preferring traditional liturgy makes me any less orthodox, or merits qualification with quotes or trademark signs.

The Pope himself has shown love for traditional liturgy - does that make him merely "orthodox"?
Are orthodox Catholics who vote conservative or prefer the Latin mass somehow less truly orthodox than those who are politically liberal or like guitar masses?

Given the real problems in the Church and the world, I think constantly criticizing and tearing down those Catholics who are at least trying to stay loyal to authentic Catholic teaching is an immense and obnoxious waste of time.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Socrates

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='02 May 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1272842375' post='2103807']
I have a question for people wanting to attend "sold" and "orthodox" schools.

I understand, from a parents perspective. You don't want to pay big $$$ to have your kid taught junk.

But from the person attending's perspective ...

... why is it that big a deal?

Is it a social/spiritual thing? You want to be with people you feel comfortable with?

Is it an intellectual thing? You're not sure your brain would be able to resist in a captive, hostile situation for 4 years?

do you think you won't learn as much if the environment is not orthodox?

I ask because I have always thought the point of college was to rub against the grain. Sharpen the intellect and the will knife-style.

I think of high school as a time to "sponge" up stuff, and college as a time to contradict, debate, and test your own independent understanding .. and its way more effective to do that in an environment where authority figures disagree with you ...

so .. . those are my thoughts. maybe this is a hijack and it needs its own thread.
[/quote]


This reasoning is fundamentally flawed from any Catholic point of view. You think of college as "a time to contradict, debate, and test your own independent understanding". And you seem to think it requires a hostile environment in order to accomplish this? Wherever did you get such a notion? I can't think of anyone in the Church who would recommend such a course of action. Had the Church adopted such an approach there would have been no point in building the great medieval universities. They would simply have shipped everyone off to Islamic schools so as to ensure they were in a hostile environment! No one really gets into the Catholic intellectual tradition in any great depth in high school. The Church has viewed high school as a place to prepare for college, not really as a place of adequate intellectual formation. Real intellectual formation takes place in college.
From a spiritual point of view I can't imagine any spiritual director counseling such a course of action either. Did St. Paul advise the early Christians to mix with the pagans so they would "flourish" in a spiritually hostile environment? No, St. Paul wisely knew it was better to avoid people and things that would endanger people's faith. What you have done is to deprive yourself of getting deeply into the Catholic intellectual tradition.

Is there some deeper reason here that we're missing? Did you perhaps fear you would rebel against your environment in a Catholic school? I have no way of knowing that, that's just a thought.


S.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Skinzo

[organwerke]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='07 May 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1273226650' post='2106218']
Did St. Paul advise the early Christians to mix with the pagans so they would "flourish" in a spiritually hostile environment? No, St. Paul wisely knew it was better to avoid people and things that would endanger people's faith. What you have done is to deprive yourself of getting deeply into the Catholic intellectual tradition.
[/quote]

I think st Paul encouraged the early Christians to go to pagans and to frequent pagans in order to evangelize them!

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1272994992' post='2104879']
My question was to determine why people who choose an orthodox school do so. Why?[/quote]

I think you should've explained where you're coming from to start with, because the sequence of questions may be seen as an attack. Nevertheless, I do appreciate how you try to see through labels. I hope that the "iron sharpens iron" approach has had good results for you. It's nice that you question Catholics and don't let them be wimps since I'm sure there are quite a few who would be embarassed by some of those questions. I can't answer for them, but I would guess that most just want to learn from good sources and don't really deserve the way you brought it up.

There's also a larger problem when it comes to the Church, namely the strictness of adherence to the isolated forms of specific communities or movements or traditions (lower case). That has the potential to endanger a wider notion of Tradition, and can get people into holier-than-thou triumphalism or even set themselves apart and away from the Church. Or impose customs that simply don't have to be, some of which you and Maggie have mentioned.

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1272994992' post='2104879']
Personally, I have found it easier to be Catholic at an aggressively secular school. The college years are ones where many people search for an identity ... for me it was a whole lot easier to find my Catholic identity, since it stuck out like a sore thumb in the secular morass.[/quote]
[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1273028166' post='2105191']
I've actually heard that more students lose their faith at unorthodox Catholic-in-name-only universities than at purely secular ones, where they are more likely to know they are going against the grain.[/quote]

That sounds like you're talking about the same thing, in the end. I have personally left a Catholic campus and probably came out stronger because of exploring things for myself, although that made me waste some time of my life.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1273028166' post='2105191']
Just as if I was going to study medicine, I'd want to learn from knowledgeable doctors rather than quacks, etc. If knowledge is the pursuit of truth, one can learn better from those teaching in accord with the truth than from those opposed to it.[/quote]

Right on. It must be challenging without being unfaithful or irreverent. If you deepen enough in the truth, you'll find that there will be a lot more important, fundamental issues to make you question yourself than you those you handle on petty quarrels with 20 year-old university students shouting at you. If it's about the teachers, then it's your best guesses against a Doctor who knows a lot better than you on how to lead you in the wrong way despite any of your sophomore objectives, since they have had their whole lives to be convinced by it themselves (sometimes even deviously going against the faith, if not explicitly).

Edited February 10, 2011 by ExCorde

[ExCorde]

If you know someone who is interested in psychology or counseling, you'll probably want to have them look up the:

[b][url="http://ipsciences.edu/"][b]Institute for the Psychological Sciences
[/b][/url][/b]
They aren't a pontifical university as such, but the whole project is committed to connect psychology with the faith and sound philosophy. Fr. Frank Pavone was recently there, a bunch of good folks support their work even though they're a small, but incredibly specialized school. For example, I know Cardinal Ratzinger supported them early in their formation (they got established in 1999). They're associated with the Legion of Christ and have persevered though the recent turmoils.

I've been discussing some of their work and the activities of Catholics in psychology in general on [b][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=65956"][b]this thread[/b][/url][/b].

Edited February 10, 2011 by ExCorde

[Maria]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1272842375' post='2103807']
I have a question for people wanting to attend "sold" and "orthodox" schools.

I understand, from a parents perspective. You don't want to pay big $$$ to have your kid taught junk.

But from the person attending's perspective ...

... why is it that big a deal?

Is it a social/spiritual thing? You want to be with people you feel comfortable with?

Is it an intellectual thing? You're not sure your brain would be able to resist in a captive, hostile situation for 4 years?

do you think you won't learn as much if the environment is not orthodox?

I ask because I have always thought the point of college was to rub against the grain. Sharpen the intellect and the will knife-style.

I think of high school as a time to "sponge" up stuff, and college as a time to contradict, debate, and test your own independent understanding .. and its way more effective to do that in an environment where authority figures disagree with you ...

so .. . those are my thoughts. maybe this is a hijack and it needs its own thread.
[/quote]
I will try to explain why I wanted to go to a Catholic college, and why I appreciate being here...
I wanted to go because I found education elsewhere frustrating and relatively unproductive... I studied Social Sciences in CEGEP (institutions unique to Quebec, = grade 12 + 1st year of university in a roughly university type of format, but smaller), and I found it very difficult/impossible to integrate the various philosophies behind the various disciplines. I don't like feeling internally fragmented, so the other option would have been to simply acquire facts &c. and spill them out on the exam -- to keep it superficial. The problem with that is that then my education wouldn't have been as productive as I wanted it to be. I noticed that most of my school-mates seemed to be taking the superficial route, where what was taught in one class belonged to that class and was unrelated both to other classes and to reality as a whole. I didn't want my education to be divorced from the consideration of truth -- developing critical thinking skills (meaning being able to spot inconsistencies?) is valuable, but I think education should have the aim of increasing one's understanding of and appreciation for truth, and that the ability to reason should be a means to this end, not an end in itself. And besides, I didn't find myself using as strict reason as I would have liked to, partly because of time considerations, and partly because I knew that the teachers would have to give me a good grade for something that was reasonably well-argued, even if I could think of objections to my argument.

Now that I'm at Thomas Aquinas College, I definitely do appreciate the social/spiritual aspect. I like being in an environment where everyone (well, mostly, or at least to some extent) is striving to come to an understanding of truth and is trying to grow in wisdom and holiness. I love the sacramental like and the reverence and love for God that is displayed. I especially like the integrated aspect of the program, where things discussed in one class can be brought up to illuminate the material for another class, where we remain in the same section of students for all classes, and where the curriculum is designed to help the student acquire an understanding of reality.

And, in fact, since our classes are discussions, there is more opportunity to contradict, debate, and test our own independent understanding than I had in CEGEP.

[Vincent Vega]

Reading through this thread makes me happy ([u].[/u]) [s]that[/s] [b][color="#006400"]censored for charity[/color][/b].

[CatherineM]

I find I like going to an orthodox school simply because I don't have to fight with professors about what the church teaches.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1297399574' post='2211258']
I find I like going to an orthodox school simply because I don't have to fight with professors about what the church teaches.
[/quote]

Yes, it certainly is less exhausting/draining.