Solid Catholic Colleges And Universities

[Maggyie]

As I said, I think students at schools on the list DO learn to use critical thinking skills and take intellectual risks. I don't think orthodox Catholics are mindless sheep, I am one myself. But some people (or their parents) want to spend four years - or even their entire lives - in a Truth Cocoon, as opposed to people who go to an "orthodox" school to learn theology or for fellowship purposes, which I think are valid reasons. There are plenty of problems with the "orthodox" movement today and I am not the only one who has noticed some issues.

*Orthodoxy experienced as an ideology (this is pure evil, by the way)
*Orthodoxy as an aesthetic
*Orthodoxy as a liturgical style
*Orthodoxy as a wing of the Church with its own leaders, media and spokesmen (see RealCatholic TV. As in, he is presenting "Real" Catholicism, anything to the contrary is false)
*Orthodoxy as a weapon or instrument for punishment
*Orthodoxy as a tool of group cohesion (us vs. the heterodox enemy. Probably a major reason why "orthodox" Catholics sometimes feel more kinship with conservative Protestants than they do with "liberal" Catholics)
*Orthodoxy as a particular required lifestyle or behavior pattern

These mutations of orthodoxy can probably only thrive in an era in which true orthodoxy has been lacking at many levels of the Church.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Raphael' date='27 April 2010 - 08:54 PM' timestamp='1272423277' post='2101357']
Faculty including:



NOT ORTHODOX!!!
[/quote]

but also including Prof. of Philosophy Peter Kreeft

Edited May 5, 2010 by goldenchild17

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Maggie' date='05 May 2010 - 07:16 AM' timestamp='1273065419' post='2105338']
As I said, I think students at schools on the list DO learn to use critical thinking skills and take intellectual risks. I don't think orthodox Catholics are mindless sheep, I am one myself. But some people (or their parents) want to spend four years - or even their entire lives - in a Truth Cocoon, as opposed to people who go to an "orthodox" school to learn theology or for fellowship purposes, which I think are valid reasons. There are plenty of problems with the "orthodox" movement today and I am not the only one who has noticed some issues.

*Orthodoxy experienced as an ideology (this is pure evil, by the way)
[b]*Orthodoxy as an aesthetic[/b]
[b]*Orthodoxy as a liturgical style[/b]
*Orthodoxy as a wing of the Church with its own leaders, media and spokesmen (see RealCatholic TV. As in, he is presenting "Real" Catholicism, anything to the contrary is false)
*Orthodoxy as a weapon or instrument for punishment
*Orthodoxy as a tool of group cohesion (us vs. the heterodox enemy. Probably a major reason why "orthodox" Catholics sometimes feel more kinship with conservative Protestants than they do with "liberal" Catholics)
[b]*Orthodoxy as a particular required lifestyle or behavior pattern[/b]

These mutations of orthodoxy can probably only thrive in an era in which true orthodoxy has been lacking at many levels of the Church.
[/quote]
What is "true" orthodoxy?

BTW, some of your bullet points (those in bold face) would be seen as expressions of Orthodoxy in Eastern Christianity.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='05 May 2010 - 05:00 AM' timestamp='1273071604' post='2105364']
What is "true" orthodoxy?

BTW, some of your bullet points (those in bold face) would be seen as expressions of Orthodoxy in Eastern Christianity.
[/quote]

I agree with Apo. And I would add I think one would have to be a mind reader and a reader of souls to determine
just who is holding some of those bullet points.

S.

[HisChildForever]

Adding to what Socrates has been saying, Maggie, I feel you (and your sister) have more issues with orthodox Catholicism than with Islam. I am not trying to turn this into a debate or make this an attack, in fact it is something that warrants concern.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='05 May 2010 - 09:00 AM' timestamp='1273071604' post='2105364']
What is "true" orthodoxy?

BTW, some of your bullet points (those in bold face) would be seen as expressions of Orthodoxy in Eastern Christianity.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure the bolded points are legitimate and important expressions of orthodoxy for the Latin rite as for the East. At least they should be.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='05 May 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1273071604' post='2105364']
What is "true" orthodoxy?

BTW, some of your bullet points (those in bold face) would be seen as expressions of Orthodoxy in Eastern Christianity.
[/quote]

To determine true orthodoxy one can examine the word orthodox. Right teaching. For Catholics, orthodoxy can in most cases be measured against the Catechism of the Catholic Church which has been declared to be reliable. I am aware that the Orthodox have a very rigid understanding of aesthetics in general and sacred art in particular and that is one reason among many that I am not Orthodox. While I love icons and understand their special role in the Eastern church, nevertheless I do not have a problem with a place of worship like the Sistine Chapel, which is decorated in beautiful, worthy art, but not one icon (that I am aware of).

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='05 May 2010 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1273073357' post='2105373']
Adding to what Socrates has been saying, Maggie, I feel you (and your sister) have more issues with orthodox Catholicism than with Islam. I am not trying to turn this into a debate or make this an attack, in fact it is something that warrants concern.
[/quote]

I don't see what warrants concern except that I lack an obsession with Muslims and Islam. I don't spend much time or emotional energy developing "issues" with Islam because it's a patently false religion. This would be like me getting all worked up about practitioners of voodoo. It's hard to do because it's croutons and everybody not under its spell can tell it's croutons.


[quote name='zunshynn' date='05 May 2010 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1273074069' post='2105380']
I'm pretty sure the bolded points are legitimate and important expressions of orthodoxy for the Latin rite as for the East. At least they should be.
[/quote]

One of the things that has helped the Latin rite be so effective is that it has aesthetic and liturgical diversity. As for required patterns of behavior or lifestyle, I don't mean abiding by moral precepts but actual ways of life. Example: Stay at home moms. I hope to be a SAHM myself one day, but some orthodox Catholics (tm) present being a SAHM as the only truly Catholic way to live, when in fact the mother staying home with the children is not all that venerable a tradition, and certainly forms no part of Catholic doctrine.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Maggie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Maggie' date='05 May 2010 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1273078115' post='2105417']
To determine true orthodoxy one can examine the word orthodox. Right teaching. For Catholics, orthodoxy can in most cases be measured against the Catechism of the Catholic Church which has been declared to be reliable.[/quote]
For Eastern Christians orthodoxy is [i]right worship[/i] (ορθο δόξα) that manifests [i]right belief[/i] (not as mere intellectual propositions, but as living faith, i.e., as an intuitive participation in the divine life that transcends mind and body while including both), for it is in the liturgy that God's saving presence is made manifest and operative here and now. That said, no book - not even scripture according to the Eastern tradition - can contain or sum up orthodoxy.

[quote name='Maggie' date='05 May 2010 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1273078115' post='2105417']
I am aware that the Orthodox have a very rigid understanding of aesthetics in general and sacred art in particular and that is one reason among many that I am not Orthodox.[/quote]
Aesthetics are dogma for Eastern Christians (both Catholic and Orthodox), because we adhere to the teaching of the Nicaea II on icons. Images are not just an added extra, a bonus if you will, in worship, but are integral to the glorification of the Father, through the Son, in the Spirit. Worship properly understood and experienced is incarnational and trinitarian.

[quote name='Maggie' date='05 May 2010 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1273078115' post='2105417']
While I love icons and understand their special role in the Eastern church, nevertheless I do not have a problem with a place of worship like the Sistine Chapel, which is decorated in beautiful, worthy art, but not one icon (that I am aware of).[/quote]
That is good, because if you had a problem with icons in worship it would be indicative of a distorted understanding of the incarnation, which is a central dogma of the faith.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='05 May 2010 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1273073357' post='2105373']
Adding to what Socrates has been saying, Maggie, I feel you (and your sister) have more issues with orthodox Catholicism than with Islam. I am not trying to turn this into a debate or make this an attack, in fact it is something that warrants concern.
[/quote]


It's weird that you think that. Since I am an orthodox Catholic. If I had more "issues" with orthodox Catholicism than with Islam, I would probably embrace the the latter and not the former, dontcha think?

I have a problem with the "orthodoxy" which says Catholics have to think about Islam a certain way, lest they fall into "religious indifferentism."

I happen to consider myself fairly conservative, but the point is that orthodoxy is broader, more liberal* than it is typically presented.

*liberal = traditional definition (i.e, free, nonrestrictive)

Edited May 5, 2010 by Lilllabettt

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' date='05 May 2010 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1273078115' post='2105417']
I don't see what warrants concern except that I lack an obsession with Muslims and Islam. I don't spend much time or emotional energy developing "issues" with Islam because it's a patently false religion. This would be like me getting all worked up about practitioners of voodoo. It's hard to do because it's croutons and everybody not under its spell can tell it's croutons.
[/quote]

This comes across as an underhanded comment and I truly hope that was not your intention.

[organwerke]

..

Edited May 5, 2010 by organwerke

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='05 May 2010 - 06:12 PM' timestamp='1273093941' post='2105538']
This comes across as an underhanded comment and I truly hope that was not your intention.
[/quote]

Didn't mean it as underhanded. I'm sorry. I'm sick, I have exhausted today's allowence of Advil and I just kind of smell of elderberries at life today

Edited May 5, 2010 by Maggie

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Maggie' date='05 May 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1273078115' post='2105417']
As for required patterns of behavior or lifestyle, I don't mean abiding by moral precepts but actual ways of life. Example: Stay at home moms. I hope to be a SAHM myself one day, but some orthodox Catholics (tm) present being a SAHM as the only truly Catholic way to live, when in fact the mother staying home with the children is not all that venerable a tradition, and certainly forms no part of Catholic doctrine.
[/quote]

I've noticed this particular example as a problem too. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a SAHM, but some people in the Church look down on working moms, which isn't right. It isn't for everybody and for some women, it would go against their temperament. (I'm probably going to be a working mom myself, because I don't think I could handle being home with the kids all day. It isn't that I hate children, or I wouldn't get married and have children in the first place, I'd just rather have a certain balance to my life.) I've also noticed that some Catholics look down on those with small families as if they may possibly be contracepting or "abusing" NFP. Big families are nice, but again not for everybody. That's between the couple and God. There's no quota for children that we have to hit. It's like people forget that The Holy Family was a small one.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='05 May 2010 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1273100238' post='2105578']
I've noticed this particular example as a problem too. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a SAHM, but some people in the Church look down on working moms, which isn't right. It isn't for everybody and for some women, it would go against their temperament. (I'm probably going to be a working mom myself, because I don't think I could handle being home with the kids all day. It isn't that I hate children, or I wouldn't get married and have children in the first place, I'd just rather have a certain balance to my life.) I've also noticed that some Catholics look down on those with small families as if they may possibly be contracepting or "abusing" NFP. Big families are nice, but again not for everybody. That's between the couple and God. There's no quota for children that we have to hit. It's like people forget that The Holy Family was a small one.
[/quote]

You're right, the size of families is a good example too. Also one can see these attitudes coming up with home-schooling sometimes.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Maggie

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='05 May 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1273100238' post='2105578']
I've noticed this particular example as a problem too. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a SAHM, but some people in the Church look down on working moms, which isn't right. It isn't for everybody and for some women, it would go against their temperament. (I'm probably going to be a working mom myself, because I don't think I could handle being home with the kids all day. It isn't that I hate children, or I wouldn't get married and have children in the first place, I'd just rather have a certain balance to my life.) I've also noticed that some Catholics look down on those with small families as if they may possibly be contracepting or "abusing" NFP. Big families are nice, but again not for everybody. That's between the couple and God. There's no quota for children that we have to hit. It's like people forget that The Holy Family was a small one.
[/quote]

[quote name='Maggie' date='05 May 2010 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1273100647' post='2105582']
You're right, the size of families is a good example too. Also one can see these attitudes coming up with home-schooling sometimes.
[/quote]

I agree with you both on this point. Therese, I have noticed that some Catholics find working mothers as an unfortunate necessity, or a last resort - as if a woman should not be praised for wanting a career outside the home. It also seems like women are expected to produce as many children as possible. However, I often find this mindset to be more common amongst "traditional" male Catholics. The women are to stay at home and have a dozen children while the men have the career and the family. Of course, it is very easy for a man to say this because he does not have to "pick" between a career and a family (a decision many women are expected to make, according to this mindset at least) and he is not the one carrying and bearing the dozen children.