Solid Catholic Colleges And Universities

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='txdinghysailor' date='02 May 2010 - 07:09 PM' timestamp='1272841775' post='2103805']
I listened to a lecture one time by a lady who converted to B'hai from Catholicism while at CUA.
[/quote]
I can't speak to the rest of the university as a community, but the theology faculty is legitimate.

"As a pontifical university with ecclesiastical faculties, the university has a special relationship to the Church, one that is different from her peer institutions. The schools of canon law, philosophy, and theology and religious studies, because they play a significant role within the Church by providing instruction in what used to be called the ‘sacred sciences,’ have an obligation under Church law to not only be in full communion with the Church but also to ‘teach in the name of the Church.’ The ‘canonical mission’ is the obligation of the institution to obtain for the Catholic professor before his/her faculty appointment. Professors on ecclesiastical faculties who are non-Catholic also must receive permission to teach in the name of the Church. In both cases, the permission is granted by the archbishop of Washington, who is also the university’s chancellor."
http://www.cua.edu/catholic-identity/catholic-intellectual-tradition.cfm#Ecclesiastical

[N/A Gone]

sweet...maybe they are an option for me.

[tinytherese]

I'm not sure what everyone's reason is for going to a Catholic university, but for some they just like to know that they will be around other people like them, both as far as peers and faculty go. Sometimes people feel alone in the faith and going to schools like these comforts them. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to go to one of these schools. Not everyone is a one size fits all person. I went to a secular college for two years and it was at least somewhat liberal. I actually enjoyed my time there, but there were some tough times. Oh the stories I could tell!

I definitely grew stronger in my faith from my time there, but I don't want to have to constantly rely on myself to do self learning about the faith, because for all I know, I could be wrong on some things with nobody helping me along. I'm a theology major and I did benefit from the world religions classes at my other school, but I'll need more than that for when I'm a professional catechist. Not everybody can handle life at secular schools. I've actually heard of worse ones than the one that I'm attended. There wasn't even a Newman Center on campus. The closest thing to it was a non-denominational Bible study, faith sharing, and chapel service, but these were lead by liberal Protestants. (Relativistic, pro-contraception, pro-choice, gay pride tolerant, somewhat lenient on pre-marital sex, etc.) I didn't want to have to water anything down for them or get into an ugly argument with anybody there. Also, if I was going to get together with people for faith fellowship, I actually wanted to learn, instead of constantly going into apologetics mode where I would basically be the one doing the teaching.

Don't get me wrong, I did manage to evangelize the campus as I could, but any longer than there I don't think that I would have learned much of anything else. I was suspicious of too many of the classes and not all of the professors were Catholic friendly. (I knew one in particular who everyone could tell thought that Christianity was stupid and hypocritcal. He was also biased when it came to grading. He told us to be objective, but we could tell that he didn't seriously want us to be that way. We simply had to agree with what he said and refuse to think of anyone with religious beliefs as trustworthy.)

I felt like more of fighter than a student. My classmates, suitemates, and other friends certainly challenged me. I got into plenty of deep discussions there and was surrounded by plenty of people who didn't think like me. I grew from that and learned from them, but fortunately they didn't change my values or beliefs. Transfering to a hard-core Catholic school was a different world for me, because the Catholic schools I had been at from pre-school-12th grade weren't really dedicated. I was surrounded by people who had many of the same values as me and weren't afraid to show that they were Catholic. I hardly had to be an apologist and I didn't have to worry about the school glorifying immoral behavior. Though it wasn't the right fit for me, the Catholicness of the school wasn't the source of it and I'll be going to another wonderful Catholic school faithful to the Magesterium where I won't have to constantly be so cautious about my classes or professors.

[N/A Gone]

I am not sure if the on-campus life is even an issue for me. I simply want to know that if I am investing my time into a PhD program I am being fed orthodox material. (Ironic verbage, maybe I should look into something outside the Latin rite)

[Maria]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='02 May 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1272842375' post='2103807']
I have a question for people wanting to attend "sold" and "orthodox" schools.

I understand, from a parents perspective. You don't want to pay big $$$ to have your kid taught junk.

But from the person attending's perspective ...

... why is it that big a deal?

Is it a social/spiritual thing? You want to be with people you feel comfortable with?

Is it an intellectual thing? You're not sure your brain would be able to resist in a captive, hostile situation for 4 years?

do you think you won't learn as much if the environment is not orthodox?

I ask because I have always thought the point of college was to rub against the grain. Sharpen the intellect and the will knife-style.

I think of high school as a time to "sponge" up stuff, and college as a time to contradict, debate, and test your own independent understanding .. and its way more effective to do that in an environment where authority figures disagree with you ...

so .. . those are my thoughts. maybe this is a hijack and it needs its own thread.
[/quote]
I understand where you're coming from, but I can't agree with your position. I'm in my second year of CEGEP (institutions unique to Quebec -- equivalent to the last year of high school and the first year of university), and I'm in the social science program. I knew when I went in that the overall social science mentality is hostile to the Church's mentality, but I like history, geography, etc., and I figured I was strong enough in my faith not to be too adversely affected. Despite this, I definitely have noticed that the way I think has changed to be more in accordance with the social science mentality. This does have some benefits -- it is useful to understand the way they think from the inside -- and I haven't lost my faith, but it's definitely not something I'm entirely comfortable with.

The above point is in addition to the difficulties of studying in classes where the christian viewpoint is seen as obviously absurd. Fortunately, I have not had teachers penalize me for disagreeing with them because I am able to build a decent argument (at least compared to the standards they are used to).

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='02 May 2010 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1272842375' post='2103807']
I have a question for people wanting to attend "sold" and "orthodox" schools.

I understand, from a parents perspective. You don't want to pay big $$$ to have your kid taught junk.

But from the person attending's perspective ...

... why is it that big a deal?

Is it a social/spiritual thing? You want to be with people you feel comfortable with?

Is it an intellectual thing? You're not sure your brain would be able to resist in a captive, hostile situation for 4 years?

do you think you won't learn as much if the environment is not orthodox?

I ask because I have always thought the point of college was to rub against the grain. Sharpen the intellect and the will knife-style.

I think of high school as a time to "sponge" up stuff, and college as a time to contradict, debate, and test your own independent understanding .. and its way more effective to do that in an environment where authority figures disagree with you ...

so .. . those are my thoughts. maybe this is a hijack and it needs its own thread.
[/quote]
As an alumnus of a solid orthodox Catholic college listed in the Newman guide (Christendom College), and the son of those who have dedicated their careers to teaching at a solid orthodox institution, I find your tone more than a little insulting and condescending.

If you're a Catholic serious about the Faith, the value of getting an education that is solidly Catholic should be obvious. I'm not saying that everyone must attend such a school, nor do I look down on those who for good reasons attend college at other types of schools (or don't go to college at all). However, to suggest that students just attend such colleges because they are unable to handle intellectual challenge or independent thought is ignorant and insulting.

The unfortunate truth is that today, studies show the majority of students attending "Catholic" colleges that are unorthodox graduate from college having either abandoned the Catholic Faith entirely, or going against Catholic teaching on basic moral and theological areas. For anyone who takes the Catholic Faith seriously, this large-scale loss of Faith should be a cause of serious concern.
In contrast, almost all the alumni I know of my alma mater remain practicing Catholics who are serious about our religious beliefs. I'm not saying we're all saints or that the school is perfect or without defects, nor that no one can remain Catholic at schools that are non-Catholic or unorthodox, but I do think this fact speaks for something.
I know people can and do retain a strong faith while studying at schools hostile to orthodox Catholic belief, and I commend them for it. But unfortunately such cases seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
I definitely think my four years at Christendom College have intellectually strengthened my Faith and helped me better know and defend it against opposition, rather than the opposite. It's not like we graduate as intellectual cripples whose Faith will be destroyed at any opposition in the "real world."
Would I still be Catholic if I'd attended a school where Catholic orthodoxy was not taught? I honestly can't say - perhaps, perhaps not. But I definitely think my Catholic education has been a strong aid in keeping and defending the Faith against attacks, and that it has been an asset rather than a liability in that regard.

Yes, it would be wonderful if every Catholic high-school graduate entered college with a rock-solid knowledge of the Faith strong enough to withstand any attack. But, unfortunate as that may be, that is not the case for the great majority of students. Unfortunately, most 17-18-year-olds today are not solid and fully formed in their beliefs, and are often highly malleable and susceptible to outside influences. For many, college is still a time of formation. And unfortunately, their formation in the faith from schools and parents is often lacking.
Obviously, there's a lot of factors that could use improvement, but I fail to see the point in self-professed Catholics begrudging or belittling schools that are working to actually educate students according to the Catholic Faith, or the students that choose to attend such schools.

I don't know you or your sister personally, but I'm really getting the impression you have some kind of beef with Catholic orthodoxy or orthodox Catholic institutions, as shown by you always typing the words "orthodox," "solid," etc. with mocking quotation marks or trademark signs in your posts (implying either that they are not actually orthodox, or that you find the entire concept of Catholic orthodoxy bogus or risible).
While such an attitude might be understandable from an anti-Catholic, from someone claiming to be a faithful Catholic, it's a bit strange, to say the least.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Socrates

[Apotheoun]

+1

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Socrates' date='04 May 2010 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1272991749' post='2104853']
However, to suggest that students just attend such colleges because they are unable to handle intellectual challenge or independent thought is ignorant and insulting.

I don't know you or your sister personally, but I'm really getting the impression you have some kind of beef with Catholic orthodoxy or orthodox Catholic institutions, as shown by you always placing the words "orthodox," "solid," etc. with mocking quotation marks or trademark signs in your posts (implying either that they are not actually orthodox, or that you find the entire concept of Catholic orthodoxy bogus or risible).
While such an attitude might be understandable from an anti-Catholic, from someone claiming to be a faithful Catholic, it's a bit strange, to say the least.
[/quote]


I apologize for making the impression that I think people who attend "orthodox" Catholic colleges can't handle intellectual challenge/ independent thought. Not my intention.

My question was to determine why people who choose an orthodox school do so. Why? Is it because they want to be able to go more with the flow, as opposed to always be fighting upstream? Would they rather not worry about being brainwashed? Do they view college as a learning experience defined from gaining knowledge from great masters, as opposed to a learning experience defined by struggle, debate, etc.? Does it have more to do with career choice?

Or does intellectual stuff have less to do with it. Is it more about fellowship opportunities. Is it important to have a pool of eligible people for discernment of marriage purposes. Is it easier for them to be Catholic in an "orthodox" environment?

Personally, I have found it easier to be Catholic at an aggressively secular school. The college years are ones where many people search for an identity ... for me it was a whole lot easier to find my Catholic identity, since it stuck out like a sore thumb in the secular morass. Fellowship was easier; I had a built-in group of friends at the Newman Center; religion meant we had something "strange" in common, and our friendship was defined in opposition to the secular majority. Picking apart the nonsense I am taught in lectures has confirmed the veracity of Catholicism and the weakness of the argument of the other side.

My question was an honest one, in good faith. Your sensitivity on this issue probably has some meaning, but I'm not sure what.

I am somewhat annoyed that you have lumped my sister and I together. While we are twins, we are not a matching set. We have independent thoughts (from each other.) Kindly address her personally, if you want her explanation. Me, I put "orthodox" in quotes here because there are multiple definitions. I think Notre Dame is orthodox, for example. Many do not.


[size="1"]
Digression:
In some threads (not this one) I have used quotes to mock the representation of Catholic Orthodoxy as a lunchbox of characteristics ... (e.g., Orthodox Catholic = conservative, or Republican-voting, pro-Communion-denial, ultramontanists, or Latin chanting liturgical sticklers, or pro-American etc., any of those things "Phatmass Catholics" and/or the "Orthodox" Catholic blogosphere or often EWTN "typically" represent as "orthodoxy." In other words, I do not think the concept of orthodoxy is bogus, only how it is represented at times; I do not deny the existence of orthodoxy, I only insist it has a broader scope than some people seem to think)[/size]

Edited May 4, 2010 by Lilllabettt

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='04 May 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1272994992' post='2104879']
My question was to determine why people who choose an orthodox school do so. Why? Is it because they want to be able to go more with the flow, as opposed to always be fighting upstream? Would they rather not worry about being brainwashed? Do they view college as a learning experience defined from gaining knowledge from great masters, as opposed to a learning experience defined by struggle, debate, etc.? Does it have more to do with career choice?[/quote]

In college, you are in control of your academics. You chose your major according to your own interests and intellectual capabilities; you then chose your schedule, which gets more flexible after freshman year. Obviously, and perhaps more importantly, you chose your college. Do you want to be close to home, or far? Live in a dorm or apartment, or commute? Attend a secular school, a private one, or a Catholic one? It is all about personal preference. I had a great experience at a small, public high school not five blocks from my house. But I never had a "real" Catholic friend to discuss the faith with or to gab about the theology book I just finished. I wanted to go to a Catholic university for the atmosphere, for the classes (theology/philosophy requirement plus free electives), and to meet people my age like me. I love passing by the small chapel, seeing priests and seminarians stroll around campus, and hearing the bells chime. I appreciate the availability of daily Mass and Confession - right on campus. Catholicism is the norm on my campus, which compliments Catholicism as the norm in my life. That is why I go to my school.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Socrates' date='04 May 2010 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1272991749' post='2104853']

I don't know you or your sister personally, but I'm really getting the impression you have some kind of beef with Catholic orthodoxy or orthodox Catholic institutions, as shown by you always typing the words "orthodox," "solid," etc. with mocking quotation marks or trademark signs in your posts (implying either that they are not actually orthodox, or that you find the entire concept of Catholic orthodoxy bogus or risible).
While such an attitude might be understandable from an anti-Catholic, from someone claiming to be a faithful Catholic, it's a bit strange, to say the least.
[/quote]

Hmmmm, while Lilla and I are twins, we are not clones.... or are we

I don't have any problem with orthodox schools at all, I am very glad they exist. However in some respects they are worrisome as part of a trend... there is not just a Catholic bubble, but an "orthodox" Catholic cultural bubble, and I think people sometimes choose a school that has been [b]labeled [/b]"orthodox" because they are comfortable with the bubble and want to stay there. Whereas the period of higher education is more fruitfully spent refining one's critical thinking skills, taking intellectual risks, becoming educated in the more general sense. Not to say that students at a "good" Catholic school DON'T develop critical thinking or take risks with their thought systems, but sometimes these don't seem to be the goals when choosing a school.

Lists like Newman's are also somewhat unhelpful, and it's one reason I would put "orthodox" in quotes in this case, because for many people orthodoxy is a deeply subjective category when in fact it is a precise theological term. You can see it on this thread - Providence College made the list but some people think it shouldn't have. Should Notre Dame make the list or not. Everybody has their own criteria for evaluation but ultimately it is not the role of individuals or lay organizations etc to determine the orthodoxy of institutions or bishops etc. That is the role of the Church.

I also sometimes put orthodox in quotes or add (tm) because for many institutions and individuals, the word orthodox is used more as a sociopolitical brand name. These people and places view "orthodoxy" as a very important part of their personality and there's nothing wrong with that, in fact I would say the same, but the term is not really meant to be used to provide group identity or as a title that different groups "own" so to speak. Not to mention for many, many "orthodox" Catholics, their orthodoxy only goes so far. We can see this on EWTN where Raymond Arroyo and his guests sometimes spend quite a bit of time trying to justify torture, an intrinsic evil. Or the death penalty. Lots and lots of squirming to try to show the Catechism doesn't mean what the Catechism clearly says. For these Catholics, orthodoxy truly is "orthodoxy."

Edited May 4, 2010 by Maggie

[tinytherese]

There is a significant amount of variety in orthodox Catholic schools. FUS strikes me as pretty charismatic (not that you have to be that spirituality type to be there. Those with more moderate or traditional preferences can get along fine there as well.) Schools like Christendom seem more traditional flavored. Some on the Newman Guide only have one major--liberal arts. So they look at the intellectual thinking and tradition of Catholcism and not just in theology, but philosophy, political science, etc. and how they interrelate to one another. (They look at critizism of such thinking too.) Even works such as Plato and Aristotle are studied. It has been referred to as The Great Books Program. Now, to a certain level some other schools on the list do this as well, just not for all four years since they have more majors. Such forms of education strike me as very valuable and help to get students more well-rounded for those who wish to do so.

Just because a school is commited to orthodoxy doesn't mean that arguments against it are never brought up. It isn't as if one is "brain-washed" to blindly following the Church. If you want to know why they believe what they do, chances are good that they'll be able to confidently answer you intelligently.

P.S. This isn't me taking offence at Lillabett or anyone else. I'm just trying to help people get an idea of what these schools are like.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Maggie' date='04 May 2010 - 04:22 PM' timestamp='1273008123' post='2105016']

I also sometimes put orthodox in quotes or add (tm) because for many institutions and individuals, the word orthodox is used more as a sociopolitical brand name. These people and places view "orthodoxy" as a very important part of their personality and there's nothing wrong with that, in fact I would say the same, but the term is not really meant to be used to provide group identity or as a title that different groups "own" so to speak. Not to mention for many, many "orthodox" Catholics, their orthodoxy only goes so far. We can see this on EWTN where Raymond Arroyo and his guests sometimes spend quite a bit of time trying to justify torture, an intrinsic evil. Or the death penalty. Lots and lots of squirming to try to show the Catechism doesn't mean what the Catechism clearly says. For these Catholics, orthodoxy truly is "orthodoxy."
[/quote]

This is an interesting thought. It seems as if "orthodoxy" is a very broad word. I can't speak for anyone else, but to me when I think "orthodox" I simply mean both neither rad trad "holier than the pope" and not liberal (e.g. not someone who basically says, "To Heck with the Magesterium! I'll do whatever I want whether that means support abortions, contraception, women in the priesthood, gay marriage, some paganism, not attending mass when I don't want to if I don't think it works for me, throwing away the catechism or at least crossing out the stuff that I don't want to believe in.")

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='04 May 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1272994992' post='2104879']
I apologize for making the impression that I think people who attend "orthodox" Catholic colleges can't handle intellectual challenge/ independent thought. Not my intention.[/quote]
I might not have been so "sensitive" on this if it was one isolated post, but a negative attitude towards Catholic orthodoxy seems to be a pattern in your posts.

[quote]My question was to determine why people who choose an orthodox school do so. Why? Is it because they want to be able to go more with the flow, as opposed to always be fighting upstream? Would they rather not worry about being brainwashed? Do they view college as a learning experience defined from gaining knowledge from great masters, as opposed to a learning experience defined by struggle, debate, etc.? Does it have more to do with career choice?

Or does intellectual stuff have less to do with it. Is it more about fellowship opportunities. Is it important to have a pool of eligible people for discernment of marriage purposes. Is it easier for them to be Catholic in an "orthodox" environment?[/quote]
The exact reasons will vary with individual students, who come from a variety of backgrounds and experiences. I don't think there's any one-size-fits-all answer. For me, I'll admit there was a certain degree of parental pressure, but I certainly wasn't opposed to attending the school. The way I see, it, if Catholicism is the truth, it's best to learn about from those who are in agreement with the Church in matters of faith and morals. Just as if I was going to study medicine, I'd want to learn from knowledgeable doctors rather than quacks, etc. If knowledge is the pursuit of truth, one can learn better from those teaching in accord with the truth than from those opposed to it.
Despite what they might think, the great majority of college freshmen are not experts in the Faith, and are in need of learning from "great masters." If one's foundation is not first very strong, it is very easy to be led astray by false teachers, as is shown by the many Catholic students who lose their faith in college. But the motivation is less a fear of losing one's faith, than a positive desire to learn Catholic truth. I honestly think that is what drives most students who choose an orthodox college education.

There is a certain social element, in that the morals on campus tend to be a lot better than most secular schools, and there's a certain amount of positive peer pressure. I don't think that's a bad thing, as for many character is still being formed at this stage, and it's easier to be virtuous where it's not a constant uphill struggle (though there's plenty struggle enough in even a Catholic setting).

[quote]Personally, I have found it easier to be Catholic at an aggressively secular school. The college years are ones where many people search for an identity ... for me it was a whole lot easier to find my Catholic identity, since it stuck out like a sore thumb in the secular morass. Fellowship was easier; I had a built-in group of friends at the Newman Center; religion meant we had something "strange" in common, and our friendship was defined in opposition to the secular majority. Picking apart the nonsense I am taught in lectures has confirmed the veracity of Catholicism and the weakness of the argument of the other side.[/quote]
That's good for you, but many students don't have your level of maturity. I've actually heard that more students lose their faith at unorthodox Catholic-in-name-only universities than at purely secular ones, where they are more likely to know they are going against the grain.

[quote]My question was an honest one, in good faith. Your sensitivity on this issue probably has some meaning, but I'm not sure what.
[/quote]
It's because you take what appears to be a derisive attitude toward what myself, my family, and many of my friends believe in. I felt your characterizations of orthodox Catholics and orthodox schools were unfair and uncalled-for.

[quote]I am somewhat annoyed that you have lumped my sister and I together. While we are twins, we are not a matching set. We have independent thoughts (from each other.) Kindly address her personally, if you want her explanation. Me, I put "orthodox" in quotes here because there are multiple definitions. I think Notre Dame is orthodox, for example. Many do not.[/quote]
You and your sister seem to generally take the same tone on this issue, and unfortunately, I honestly can't remember who exactly posted what in the past. (Sorry, I know how you feel, but that happens. People sometimes get me confused with my brother, and we're not even twins.)
By orthodox, I mean teaching in accord with the Catholic magisterium on matters of faith and morals, and a general commitment to this by the faculty (as Christendom, where the faculty take an annual oath of fidelity).
From what I've heard Notre Dame is not orthodox across the board. Apparently, their philosophy department is generally excellent, but many in the theology dept. teach things in blatant opposition to the magisterium.

[quote][size="1"]
Digression:
In some threads (not this one) I have used quotes to mock the representation of Catholic Orthodoxy as a lunchbox of characteristics ... (e.g., Orthodox Catholic = conservative, or Republican-voting, pro-Communion-denial, ultramontanists, or Latin chanting liturgical sticklers, or pro-American etc., any of those things "Phatmass Catholics" and/or the "Orthodox" Catholic blogosphere or often EWTN "typically" represent as "orthodoxy." In other words, I do not think the concept of orthodoxy is bogus, only how it is represented at times; I do not deny the existence of orthodoxy, I only insist it has a broader scope than some people seem to think)[/size][/quote]
I'd fit most of your description above, yet I don't think that makes me bogus "orthodox." The fact that orthodox Catholics may tend to hold certain opinions does not make them any less orthodox.
For instance, while I'm politically conservative, I don't think being Republican or a member of any other political party is a requirement of theologically orthodoxy (and you'll actually find quite a range of differing political/economic ideas among orthodox Catholics). However, I do believe that modern liberalism as typified by the national Democratic Party to be incompatible with Catholic orthodoxy.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maggie' date='04 May 2010 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1273008123' post='2105016']
Hmmmm, while Lilla and I are twins, we are not clones.... or are we [/quote]
I never claimed you were clones, but you do seem to be in agreement on this issue.

[quote]I don't have any problem with orthodox schools at all, I am very glad they exist. However in some respects they are worrisome as part of a trend... there is not just a Catholic bubble, but an "orthodox" Catholic cultural bubble, and I think people sometimes choose a school that has been [b]labeled [/b]"orthodox" because they are comfortable with the bubble and want to stay there. Whereas the period of higher education is more fruitfully spent refining one's critical thinking skills, taking intellectual risks, becoming educated in the more general sense. Not to say that students at a "good" Catholic school DON'T develop critical thinking or take risks with their thought systems, but sometimes these don't seem to be the goals when choosing a school.[/quote]
I hardly find the growth in schools dedicated to teaching orthodox Catholicism a worrisome trend, but a hopeful trend. (And the past two Popes, who have personally praised schools such as Christendom agree.)

I personally think learning the truth is a more important goal in education than fighting opposition, which most people will encounter plenty of in their life anyways. I'd say having a solid orthodox Catholic education helps greatly in recognizing and countering error.
The idea that people at orthodox Catholic colleges don't engage in critical thinking is an opinion based on ignorant prejudice. In fact, a certain amount of the education is based on learning about erroneous ideas and how to counter them.

[quote]Lists like Newman's are also somewhat unhelpful, and it's one reason I would put "orthodox" in quotes in this case, because for many people orthodoxy is a deeply subjective category when in fact it is a precise theological term. You can see it on this thread - Providence College made the list but some people think it shouldn't have. Should Notre Dame make the list or not. Everybody has their own criteria for evaluation but ultimately it is not the role of individuals or lay organizations etc to determine the orthodoxy of institutions or bishops etc. That is the role of the Church. [/quote]
Newman's guide is not infallible or comprehensive, nor does it claim to be. But many of the schools on there are in fact more dedicated to Catholic orthodoxy than most others. It's a helpful guide, not the Bible, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[quote]I also sometimes put orthodox in quotes or add (tm) because for many institutions and individuals, the word orthodox is used more as a sociopolitical brand name. These people and places view "orthodoxy" as a very important part of their personality and there's nothing wrong with that, in fact I would say the same, but the term is not really meant to be used to provide group identity or as a title that different groups "own" so to speak. Not to mention for many, many "orthodox" Catholics, their orthodoxy only goes so far. We can see this on EWTN where Raymond Arroyo and his guests sometimes spend quite a bit of time trying to justify torture, an intrinsic evil. Or the death penalty. Lots and lots of squirming to try to show the Catechism doesn't mean what the Catechism clearly says. For these Catholics, orthodoxy truly is "orthodoxy."[/quote]
The Church has always taught that the death penalty may be used in certain cases, but that's a whole debate in itself.
Quite frankly, I think you're just spouting your own opinions and rehashing stereotypes here more than saying anything substantial. There are plenty of debates about these kind of issues among orthodox Catholics, even at schools like Christendom (in fact debates can sometimes get quite heated). The idea that orthodox Catholics are simply a bunch of sheep incapable of thinking for themselves is nonsense.

[ryansouf504]

Yes I go to Holy Cross College!