Genuflect, Genuflect, Genuflect

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='23 April 2010 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1272065265' post='2098861']
"Null and void"--that's pretty heavy stuff.

I know what you believe, there is no misunderstanding. I also know that our beliefs are different. Even though you're simply quoting what Pope Leo said, is absolute "theological correctness" always necessary, or kind, especially with someone who is simply doing their best to be harmless, respectful, and sometimes amusing, and is not engaging you in a debate? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]

Unless I were engaged in a formal debate with a theologian, I would never call someone else's beliefs "null and void." I was raised to be respectful of others' beliefs.

It's never clear to me whether the posters on Phatmass really welcome non-Catholics or not. I keep getting mixed messages, even when I post in a respectful way. If I'm not welcome, just say so. I'll get the message without the need for being mean or "rubbing in" our differences.
[/quote]
It's tough over the internet especially. If I had been speaking to you instead of typing, you would have picked up a lot of body language and nonverbal cues. I typed very slowly and thought hard about it, for instance, to make sure to phrase what I was saying in the least confrontational way I know how. If you had seen me, I would definitely not have looked super serious like [url="http://mittyzx.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/son_i_am_disappoint.gif"]this guy[/url]. Generally, if it's not over text, you're able to pick up a lot more. There's a certain art to reading posts, and the problem is that if you don't have it, a lot of things can sound like personal attacks or malicious remarks, when in fact their just straightforward opinions or even just jokes.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='23 April 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1272069695' post='2098889']

You take stuff too personally.
[/quote]

In the Debate phorum, the "absolutely null and void" comment would be part of a formal theological debate, in which I would quote equally strong comments in return.

In the Lame phorum, where we aren't debating, the quotation seemed unnecessarily harsh and "rubbing it in," since I know exactly what he believes, and I wasn't arguing with him.

I think that when people post a comment, they should consider the post (and the person) they are replying to. He knows I'm not a Catholic. Why emphasize the differences with such a strong phrase, particularly in the Lame phorum?

To the best of my recollection, I've NEVER said anything negative about Catholicism on Phatmass, except that I think that Vatican II got rid of a lot of gorgeous music. However, I haven't been in a Catholic church in many years, so my comments on music may no longer apply.

I've learned to ignore the negative threads about Anglicanism, even when they are unfair, such as making fun of vestments. The vast majority of Anglican vestments are tasteful and often beautiful --the ugly ones are the exception. But, ugly vestments have nothing to do with me--I'm not wearing them, so I can laugh, too.

This particular comment felt personal under the circumstances. Perhaps I do take things too personally--but walk a mile in my shoes, first, before you decide.

[CatherineM]

I don't genuflect. If I tried, there would be EMT's and news cameras involved.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='23 April 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1272072220' post='2098915']
In the Debate phorum, the "absolutely null and void" comment would be part of a formal theological debate, in which I would quote equally strong comments in return.

In the Lame phorum, where we aren't debating, the quotation seemed unnecessarily harsh and "rubbing it in," since I know exactly what he believes, and I wasn't arguing with him.

I think that when people post a comment, they should consider the post (and the person) they are replying to. He knows I'm not a Catholic. Why emphasize the differences with such a strong phrase, particularly in the Lame phorum?

To the best of my recollection, I've NEVER said anything negative about Catholicism on Phatmass, except that I think that Vatican II got rid of a lot of gorgeous music. However, I haven't been in a Catholic church in many years, so my comments on music may no longer apply.

I've learned to ignore the negative threads about Anglicanism, even when they are unfair, such as making fun of vestments. The vast majority of Anglican vestments are tasteful and often beautiful --the ugly ones are the exception. But, ugly vestments have nothing to do with me--I'm not wearing them, so I can laugh, too.

This particular comment felt personal under the circumstances. Perhaps I do take things too personally--but walk a mile in my shoes, first, before you decide.
[/quote]
Speaking of threads about Anglicanism........ I only start threads about that when I'm quoting the blogger Christopher Johnson, who is an Anglican.
Want to hear what he said today? Ooh, do ya, do ya, do ya???

If you don't, don't press the button.

[spoiler]"[...]the Lambeth Conference has outlived its usefulness. [...] Would Rowan Williams ever call such an Anglican council? Of course not; doing so would require courage, something he doesn’t have an ounce of."[/spoiler]


I feel OK posting that because he's Anglican. I happen to agree, but I wouldn't say such things in my own words outside of the context of a debate about Anglicanism.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 April 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1272071535' post='2098907']
It's tough over the internet especially. If I had been speaking to you instead of typing, you would have picked up a lot of body language and nonverbal cues. I typed very slowly and thought hard about it, for instance, to make sure to phrase what I was saying in the least confrontational way I know how. If you had seen me, I would definitely not have looked super serious like [url="http://mittyzx.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/son_i_am_disappoint.gif"]this guy[/url]. Generally, if it's not over text, you're able to pick up a lot more. There's a certain art to reading posts, and the problem is that if you don't have it, a lot of things can sound like personal attacks or malicious remarks, when in fact their just straightforward opinions or even just jokes.
[/quote]

Nihil--I wasn't responding to your post in ANY way. In your post, it was clear you held definite views, but you were trying to be as diplomatic as possible. I've never known you to be deliberately unkind or anything but thoughtful.

I was responding to the quote from Pope Leo that Anglican orders are "absolutely null and void." Outside of a formal theological debate, such a strong comment felt "mean" and "rubbing it in," when I obviously know very well the views of the Catholic church and of the poster on this issue. The quote was unnecessary and out of place in the Lame phorum. In the Debate phorum, I could counter that quote with equally strong quotes about the Catholic church from noted theologians. But, I have no desire to engage in theological debate nor to say anything negative about the Catholic church (well, except maybe some of the music).

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='23 April 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1272073183' post='2098929']
Nihil--I wasn't responding to your post in ANY way. In your post, it was clear you held definite views, but you were trying to be as diplomatic as possible. I've never known you to be deliberately unkind or anything but thoughtful.

I was responding to the quote from Pope Leo that Anglican orders are "absolutely null and void." Outside of a formal theological debate, such a strong comment felt "mean" and "rubbing it in," when I obviously know very well the views of the Catholic church and of the poster on this issue. The quote was unnecessary and out of place in the Lame phorum. In the Debate phorum, I could counter that quote with equally strong quotes about the Catholic church from noted theologians. But, I have no desire to engage in theological debate nor to say anything negative about the Catholic church (well, except maybe some of the music).
[/quote]
I realize that. I tend to assume that most people feel the same way I do about 'forum issues' like these.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 April 2010 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1272072869' post='2098922']
Speaking of threads about Anglicanism........ I only start threads about that when I'm quoting the blogger Christopher Johnson, who is an Anglican. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/evil.gif[/img]
Want to hear what he said today? Ooh, do ya, do ya, do ya???

If you don't, don't press the button.

[spoiler]"[...]the Lambeth Conference has outlived its usefulness. [...] Would Rowan Williams ever call such an Anglican council? Of course not; doing so would require courage, something he doesn't have an ounce of."[/spoiler]


I feel OK posting that because he's Anglican. I happen to agree, but I wouldn't say such things in my own words outside of the context of a debate about Anglicanism.
[/quote]

I don't know enough about the current Archbishop of Caterbury to have an opinion. I do know the Anglican communion has some real problems right now, but the problems are so complex that I have no idea what the answer is. So, say whatever you want to say or quote whomever you want to quote.

I guess the bottom line is: Say what you want about Anglicanism, but don't say it in a thread where I'm talking about my own practices or beliefs. Then it's personal. Otherwise, I understand that Anglicans are fair game on Phatmass, and a lot of the time they deserve it. (Although, I do think the comments on ugly vestments are unfair. Yes, the Anglican vestments that have been highlighted in some threads ARE ugly, but they in no way represent the standard vestments in the Anglican church.)

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='23 April 2010 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1272073967' post='2098937']
I don't know enough about the current Archbishop of Caterbury to have an opinion. I do know the Anglican communion has some real problems right now, but the problems are so complex that I have no idea what the answer is. So, say whatever you want to say or quote whomever you want to quote.

I guess the bottom line is: Say what you want about Anglicanism, but don't say it in a thread where I'm talking about my own practices or beliefs. Then it's personal. Otherwise, I understand that Anglicans are fair game on Phatmass, and a lot of the time they deserve it. (Although, I do think the comments on ugly vestments are unfair. Yes, the Anglican vestments that have been highlighted in some threads ARE ugly, but they in no way represent the standard vestments in the Anglican church.)
[/quote]
We've got some pretty ugly Catholic vestments too. Even the Pope has had a couple bad outfits.
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QDrahS0yvgE/SYtR4crhX7I/AAAAAAAAAHE/WObVLppnifU/s320/romansubmit3Catholicredlines.jpg[/img]
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lc54S7qQAOs/RuL3eG-G91I/AAAAAAAAA6E/XSktihAOoNE/s400/ugly+2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://frtim.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/target.jpg[/img]

[zunshynn]

[Nihil Obstat]

The Holy Father does not look happy at having to wear that craziness. I wonder if someone got fired after that episode.

[CatherineM]

I just want it on the record that I never made a tie-dyed chasuble.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 April 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1272075352' post='2098943']
We've got some pretty ugly Catholic vestments too. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/P.gif[/img] Even the Pope has had a couple bad outfits. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif[/img]

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lc54S7qQAOs/RuL3eG-G91I/AAAAAAAAA6E/XSktihAOoNE/s400/ugly+2.jpg[/img]

[/quote]

Perhaps these vestments were intended to show the Pope's support for UCLA, since light blue and yellow/gold are the UCLA school colors.

Just for my own information (and to give the Pope the benefit of the doubt), is there a specific liturgical meaning behind the light blue and yellow vestments? Since I have never seen the Pope to be anything but well-dressed, I assume there is a good reason he is wearing these particular vestments.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='23 April 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1272076723' post='2098960']
Perhaps these vestments were intended to show the Pope's support for UCLA, since light blue and yellow/gold are the UCLA school colors.

Just for my own information (and to give the Pope the benefit of the doubt), is there a specific liturgical meaning behind the light blue and yellow vestments? Since I have never seen the Pope to be anything but well-dressed, I assume there is a good reason he is wearing these particular vestments.
[/quote]
Blue usually has Marian symbolism...... could have been Feast of the Immaculate Conception? Or something along those lines. The yellow I can't even begin to guess.
Not my area of expertise.

[Bennn]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 April 2010 - 04:15 AM' timestamp='1272075352' post='2098943']


[img]http://frtim.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/target.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/twitch.gif[/img]


Hypnotic.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='23 April 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1272065265' post='2098861']
"Null and void"--that's pretty heavy stuff.

I know what you believe, there is no misunderstanding. I also know that our beliefs are different. Even though you're simply quoting what Pope Leo said, is absolute "theological correctness" always necessary, or kind, especially with someone who is simply doing their best to be harmless, respectful, and sometimes amusing, and is not engaging you in a debate? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]

Unless I were engaged in a formal debate with a theologian, I would never call someone else's beliefs "null and void." I was raised to be respectful of others' beliefs.

It's never clear to me whether the posters on Phatmass really welcome non-Catholics or not. I keep getting mixed messages, even when I post in a respectful way. If I'm not welcome, just say so. I'll get the message without the need for being mean or "rubbing in" our differences.
[/quote]

Iggy-

Don't mind him.

He's a jerk.