Genuflect, Genuflect, Genuflect

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

This is sort of a serious question. It's been a LONG time since I've been in a Catholic church.

What is the right way to genuflect--right knee up or left knee up? Also, how low should you go?

Note: I do not genuflect nor cross myself if I am atttending a Catholic Mass--I would feel as if I were pretending to be Catholic.

However, I have been known to genuflect and/or cross myself in an Anglo-Catholic congregation that follows these practices (and there aren't very many of them), so that has also been a LONG time.

I confess, I DO hum "The Vatican Rag" to myself when a particular thread starts to resemble a discussion on "the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin." However, I assume the participants in the thread are getting something from it (I hope), so I keep my mouth shut (or ignore the thread altogether).

Edited April 23, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nihil Obstat]

I've got no idea if there's a proper knee to bend..... I've never heard anything about it, and I'd be shocked if there was a rule.
I think it's a good idea to touch the knee to the ground. Anything less seems somewhat rushed or tentative, and I like my genuflections to be deliberate.

The most important part, of course, is to recognize to Whom you're genuflecting.

[Noel's angel]

Right knee should touch the ground.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 April 2010 - 04:27 PM' timestamp='1272058075' post='2098772']
I've got no idea if there's a proper knee to bend..... I've never heard anything about it, and I'd be shocked if there was a rule.
I think it's a good idea to touch the knee to the ground. Anything less seems somewhat rushed or tentative, and I like my genuflections to be deliberate.

The most important part, of course, is to recognize to Whom you're genuflecting. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/happy.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up. I had assumed that, as usual, there was a rule that I didn't know about. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/incense.gif[/img]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='23 April 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1272058369' post='2098776']
Right knee should touch the ground.
[/quote]
She's right. I just found it mentioned as "bending the right knee."
My bad.

[Bennn]

I kneel on my right knee, left one up. You should genuflect (only in a Catholic church, though. Real Presence and all...) and cross yourself (you are a baptised Christian, I assume).

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Bennn' date='23 April 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1272058605' post='2098779']
I kneel on my right knee, left one up. You should genuflect (only in a Catholic church, though. Real Presence and all...) and cross yourself (you are a baptised Christian, I assume).


[/quote]

I am a baptized and confirmed Episcopalian. I've never asked (but now I'm going to see if I can find an answer), but the Anglo-Catholic congregations that practice genuflection may be reflecting their belief in the Real Presence.

Just looked it up on Wikipedia. Anglo-Catholics generally do believe in the Real Presence. However, as might be expected, there are several schools of thought within the Anglo-Catholics on many issues--I don't know if the Real Presence is one of them. In general, Anglo-Catholics see themselves as one branch of the Catholic church, similar to the Eastern and Western rites.

Edited April 23, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='23 April 2010 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1272058933' post='2098782']
I am a baptized and confirmed Episcopalian. I've never asked (but now I'm going to see if I can find an answer), but the Anglo-Catholic congregations that practice genuflection may be reflecting their belief in the Real Presence.
[/quote]
From my perspective, it seems like if you were talk to ten different Anglican pastors you'd get 11-15 different answers. You say Anglo-Catholic, so you'd probably get more who profess belief in the Real Presence, but I don't think it would be universal by any means. Martin Luther believed in consubstantiation, and some low 'church' Anglican and Episcopalians probably don't even believe in that.
If one doesn't believe in the Real Presence though, genuflecting basically becomes a nostalgic anachronism from the superstitious bad ol' days.

As Catholics however, we believe Anglicans to be unable to validly confect the Eucharist...... meaning even if they believe it is the Real Presence, we don't believe they've got it, so to speak.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 April 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1272059253' post='2098788']
As Catholics however, we believe Anglicans to be unable to validly confect the Eucharist...... meaning even if they believe it is the Real Presence, we don't believe they've got it, so to speak.
[/quote]

Indeed, as Pope Leo XIII defined in [i]Apostolicae Curae[/i], Anglican orders are absolutely null and void.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 April 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1272059253' post='2098788']
From my perspective, it seems like if you were talk to ten different Anglican pastors you'd get 11-15 different answers. You say Anglo-Catholic, so you'd probably get more who profess belief in the Real Presence, but I don't think it would be universal by any means. Martin Luther believed in consubstantiation, and some low 'church' Anglican and Episcopalians probably don't even believe in that.
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif[/img] If one doesn't believe in the Real Presence though, genuflecting basically becomes a nostalgic anachronism from the superstitious bad ol' days.

As Catholics however, we believe Anglicans to be unable to validly confect the Eucharist...... meaning even if they believe it is the Real Presence, we don't believe they've got it, so to speak.
[/quote]

I agree, there are a wide variety of beliefs within the Anglican communion. And, you're right, while an Anglo-Catholic probably believes in the Real Presence, most Anglican belief is probably closer to consubstantiation, and low-church Anglicans/Episcopalians might not believe even that. By the way, the practice of genuflection is very rare in the Episcopal church, and the only Anglican church I have ever attended that practised genuflection identified itself strongly as Anglo-Catholic, and was very ritualistic. I never asked the pastor outright, but I expect that he would have said he believed in transubstantiation.

If I wanted to start a debate (which I don't) I would say that the differences within Anglican worship aren't THAT different in many ways from the fact that if you go to different Catholic churches, you will find many different styles of worship. Also, if you ask typical Catholics (not Phamass posters), you are likely to hear a wider variety of beliefs than what you see on Phatmass. You will argue that it is different for Catholicism, because there still exists the central Church, a single body of beliefs, and the Pope. And, I will agree. It isn't the same.

I know what the Catholics believe about the Anglicans. I can't do anything about that, so I just deal with it as best I can. That is, showing respect for Catholicism, and keeping my mouth shut most of the time when it comes to theology, especially since I am NO theologian. Although I think of myself as an intelligent person, my brain just can't seem to wrap itself around Philosophy in general and Theology in particular. I just do the best I can. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/dunce.gif[/img] I am not even going to try to justify or explain Anglicanism. I'll lose the debate.

I have other intellectual strengths.

I deliberately put a religious question in the Lame thread, because that is the level that any kind of theological debate or even discussion will be with me. It's good to know one's limitations. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img]

Enough seriousness for the Lame forum. I may not be Catholic, but I try my best to be smart, nice, and above all, respectful. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/P.gif[/img]

Besides, you guys have THE BEST emoticons. My favorite, although I rarely can find a way to work it into a post: [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/ascension.gif[/img]

Edited April 23, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nihil Obstat]

It's true that the opinions of Catholics in the wider world are more varied than the opinions here. Luckily we've got a Magisterium to fall back on for when people get too crazy.
It doesn't stop people from having wacky ideas (I'm thinking Karl Rahner and Hans Kung, among many many others), because mostly people don't care about authority these days, but it's a good reference for someone who *does* care when they want to learn about what they believe.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='23 April 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1272061078' post='2098809']
Indeed, as Pope Leo XIII defined in [i]Apostolicae Curae[/i], Anglican orders are absolutely null and void.
[/quote]

"Null and void"--that's pretty heavy stuff.

I know what you believe, there is no misunderstanding. I also know that our beliefs are different. Even though you're simply quoting what Pope Leo said, is absolute "theological correctness" always necessary, or kind, especially with someone who is simply doing their best to be harmless, respectful, and sometimes amusing, and is not engaging you in a debate? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]

Unless I were engaged in a formal debate with a theologian, I would never call someone else's beliefs "null and void." I was raised to be respectful of others' beliefs.

It's never clear to me whether the posters on Phatmass really welcome non-Catholics or not. I keep getting mixed messages, even when I post in a respectful way. If I'm not welcome, just say so. I'll get the message without the need for being mean or "rubbing in" our differences.

Edited April 24, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[truthfinder]

You put your left knee on the ground for everyone but Jesus! (like bishop, pope, queen, king, etc.) and you right knee touches the ground for Jesus. If there's exposition of the Eucharist you kneel on both knees. But whatever you do, don't do the funny knee-jerk courtsy that some are very fond of.

Btw, I knew an Episcopalian teacher who at Catholic school would kneel during the Consecration (but of course never received) It is an option.
God bless you.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='truthfinder' date='23 April 2010 - 06:34 PM' timestamp='1272065676' post='2098863']
You put your left knee on the ground for everyone but Jesus! (like bishop, pope, queen, king, etc.) and you right knee touches the ground for Jesus. If there's exposition of the Eucharist you kneel on both knees. But whatever you do, don't do the funny knee-jerk courtsy that some are very fond of.

Btw, I knew an Episcopalian teacher who at Catholic school would kneel during the Consecration (but of course never received) It is an option.
God bless you.
[/quote]

That's an excellent rule of thumb (since I'm constantly having to curtsey to the Queen. LOL) Thanks!

When I'm in a Catholic church, I do what everyone else is doing, except that I don't cross myself or genuflect. If the congregation is kneeling, I kneel. When the congregation goes up to receive communion, I remain in my pew. I normally pray for a time, then sit quietly.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='23 April 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1272065265' post='2098861']
"Null and void"--that's pretty heavy stuff.
[/quote]


He wasn't saying your beliefs are null and void.

He was pointing out the Catholic belief that Anglican ordinations are null and void as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. Which is the way things are. The Catholic Church thinks that they are null and void.

You take stuff too personally.