Does God Ever Change His Mind?

[afro_john]

I'm working on a massive paper for my theology seminar on nature, grace, free will and predestination. Part of this seminar is that I need to write a 10-12 page paper regarding the teaching of open theism. For those who don't know open theism claims that God, being in relationship with us, truly acts and does things in response to our prayers, thoughts, actions etc. This is in stark contrast to the classical view that holds that God is immutable, impassible and timeless (more Thomistic/Augustinian view). I'm trying to articulate a Catholic response to this, does anybody have any suggestions?

[Formosus]

[quote name='afrojohn' date='20 April 2010 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1271815329' post='2097123']
I'm working on a massive paper for my theology seminar on nature, grace, free will and predestination. Part of this seminar is that I need to write a 10-12 page paper regarding the teaching of open theism. For those who don't know open theism claims that God, being in relationship with us,[b] truly acts and does things in response to our prayers, thoughts, actions etc. [/b]This is in stark contrast to the classical view that holds that God is immutable, impassible and timeless (more Thomistic/Augustinian view). I'm trying to articulate a Catholic response to this, does anybody have any suggestions?
[/quote]

This seems to be describing a God that is temporal and not eternal (and hence not really God ). Or if you want to go REALLY classical (Plato/Aristotle), it would seem to be suggesting that you could move the unmoved mover .

Edited April 21, 2010 by Formosus

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Open theism states that God changes, which is wrong, but it's not incorrect to say that God responds to us. However, His response takes into account that He knew from all eternity what we would do, and so it's not that He changes, but rather that what we see as His response was part of His plan from all eternity.

Since God is outside of time, it's not possible that He could change. Change requires temporal points of reference: before and after. God is only in the present, and what is past and future to us is all at once only present to Him. Right now, in God's "time," He sees my being conceived, sees my being born, sees my falling off my bike, sees me as I am now, and sees me (God willing) in heaven with Him. Only in this way can He truly have a relationship with us, but Open Theism takes our perceptions of time and applies them to God. That's a fatal error. Open Theism in fact undermines our relationship with God because it restricts God to a timeline.

[Nihil Obstat]

Sounds that this open theism attempts to limit God by our understanding of time.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Raphael' date='20 April 2010 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1271816641' post='2097133']
Open theism states that God changes, which is wrong, but it's not incorrect to say that God responds to us. However, His response takes into account that He knew from all eternity what we would do, and so it's not that He changes, but rather that what we see as His response was part of His plan from all eternity.

Since God is outside of time, it's not possible that He could change. Change requires temporal points of reference: before and after. God is only in the present, and what is past and future to us is all at once only present to Him. Right now, in God's "time," He sees my being conceived, sees my being born, sees my falling off my bike, sees me as I am now, and sees me (God willing) in heaven with Him. Only in this way can He truly have a relationship with us, but Open Theism takes our perceptions of time and applies them to God. That's a fatal error. Open Theism in fact undermines our relationship with God because it restricts God to a timeline.
[/quote]

I like the way you explained this. Because we do feel that God responds to us--one of the reasons why we pray.

And, in the Bible, for example, God appeared to "change his mind" when Abraham was about to sacrifice his son Issac. But, if God is outside of time, God already knew that Abraham would be faithful and obey God's command, so Issac was spared.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='20 April 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1271817602' post='2097147']
I like the way you explained this. Because we do feel that God responds to us--one of the reasons why we pray.

And, in the Bible, for example, God appeared to "change his mind" when Abraham was about to sacrifice his son Issac. But, if God is outside of time, God already knew that Abraham would be faithful and obey God's command, so Issac was spared.
[/quote]
Yes, and yet, unlike Calvin claimed, this isn't predestination. God foreknew, but He did not predestine.

[Oik]

[quote name='afrojohn' date='20 April 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1271815329' post='2097123']
I'm working on a massive paper for my theology seminar on nature, grace, free will and predestination. Part of this seminar is that I need to write a 10-12 page paper regarding the teaching of open theism. For those who don't know open theism claims that God, being in relationship with us, truly acts and does things in response to our prayers, thoughts, actions etc. This is in stark contrast to the classical view that holds that God is immutable, impassible and timeless (more Thomistic/Augustinian view). I'm trying to articulate a Catholic response to this, does anybody have any suggestions?
[/quote]

God doesn't change His Mind. He is Uncreated. God doesn't react to us, He interacts with us. Any cooperation we have with Him is Synergistic.

[Apotheoun]

The book below might be helpful:

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=jFsg-VB6ANwC&pg=PA5&dq=the+passibility+of+the+impassible+god&hl=en&ei=r2TOS-WsLpCasgOpk82vDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=the%20passibility%20of%20the%20impassible%20god&f=false"]The Suffering of the Impassible God: the Dialectics of Patristic Thought[/url]

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Raphael' date='20 April 2010 - 10:15 PM' timestamp='1271819741' post='2097160']
Yes, and yet, unlike Calvin claimed, this isn't predestination. God foreknew, but He did not predestine.
[/quote]

Makes sense to me. I've never believed in predestination--Calvin has never been a favorite of mine, although I confess it's been many years since I've studied him. I'm in no hurry to study him again.

[Oik]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 April 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1271821274' post='2097175']
The book below might be helpful:

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=jFsg-VB6ANwC&pg=PA5&dq=the+passibility+of+the+impassible+god&hl=en&ei=r2TOS-WsLpCasgOpk82vDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=the%20passibility%20of%20the%20impassible%20god&f=false"]The Suffering of the Impassible God: the Dialectics of Patristic Thought[/url]
[/quote]

This book does look good, I mean, helpful!

[N/A Gone]

Micah, take this with the least about of offense but if that is your understanding of Open Theism you really do not understand it.

OP-- As most protestant doctrines, there are drastic differences in the theology simply based on who's perspective you are following. I was personally mentored by Dr. Greg Boyd for about 6 years until my conversion to Catholicism and my understanding of Open Theism follows along with his foundation.

The debate is not about God. It is mostly about time. Once you develop an understanding of time they the rest falls into place. In the case of Boyd time does not exist as a pre-determined settled thing. It exists in partially settled and partially opened realities. God is fully aware and knowledgable about all of these possibilities. To say God does not "see"/"know" the future details in their utter determination is not about God. It is about time. If I say God cannot see the monkey on my lap--am I limiting God or is there no monkey on my lap?

Open Theism does not say God "changes", but to be fair to your (Micah) view of Open theism it truly is about time. You accuse Open Theism of applying "our" take of time on God, and Open Theism would tell you to quit using out of date metaphysics to describe an aspect of God.

I really do not want to dedicate too much time to this thread. I have learned that many people in phatmass will develop a mob approach to ripping on something they do not understand in order to fit in with the crowd. I grew up an open theist, developed most of my undergrad theology around open theism and then spent a lot of time reconciling it with Catholic Theology. I submitted metaphysics papers involving my concepts with an orthodox prof at an orthodox university that approved. I have also discussed it with numerous clergy. For what it is worth. I still strongly hold to a worldview that involves Open Theism principles as a Catholic. At the risk of being called a Heretic by someone without expertise in this subject, I can answer general questions about it if you would like some help.

[N/A Gone]

http://catholicneophyte.blogspot.com/2009/10/god-time-and-us.html

Not sure it will help, but this is a paper I wrote for the Metaphysics class at FUS.

btw, you might not use the word "predestination" but if God completely knows exhaustively what we will do before we determine it then we are not the ones determining. Something else is doing it. In Anselm we have him explain this concept and end up at a form of scripted determinism. This is why Calvinism went to the extreme of utter predestination and protestantism has countered in numerous ways. Open Theism is one of them.

[N/A Gone]

http://www.amazon.com/God-Possible-Biblical-Introduction-Open/dp/080106290X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271822932&sr=8-1

That is Boyd's main explanation. To be fair I have modified it because Boyd is slightly anti-Catholic and sometimes he goes out of the way for it. If you want a clear take of Open Theism for your class this is probably one of your best bets.

Within Protestantism there are numerous misconceptions of Open Theism. Avoid Bruce Ware and John Piper.

These links might help also. Once again, this is written by an evangelical for other evangelicals.

http://www.gregboyd.org/category/essays/essays-open-theism/the-nature-of-open-theism/

http://www.gregboyd.org/category/essays/essays-open-theism/defending-open-theism/

Perhaps I can translate into Catholic for you.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Because God exists outside of time, He sees all things as the present, including all that will happen in the future. This means that in order to say that there are "opened realities" which are not "set," God would not be able to see what is laid before Him as present. If there is an open reality in the future, whether I choose A or B is not "set," I will still choose one or the other, and though it is unknown to me, my future is present to God, and He knows what I will choose. Ultimately, to say that there is any moment in time which God cannot see or does not know is to limit God, so yes, it does deal with theology and not just with time.

Now if you want to bring quantum mechanics and parallel realities into it, I really don't have the physics to go there, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that if Open Theism means that God reacts to what we do as if He wasn't expecting it or didn't foresee it, then that's heresy.

I'm content with my view, which is in line with Revelation and still allows for interaction between man and God. I really don't care what an anti-Catholic evangelical things of my metaphysics. I think Open Theism is a goofy nonsensical way of very confusingly arguing for a subjectivism in God.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Revprodeji ftw!

I recommend this book:

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Appalachian-White-Oak-Basketmaking-Handing/dp/0870496727/ref=pd_ys_home_shvl_50"]Appalachian White Oak Basketmaking[/url]