Ohio Poor Clares Move To Nc

[Buckeye]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='20 April 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1271785572' post='2096844']
There are different degrees of cloistered in that there are papal enclosed nuns, and nuns (for example, the Passionist nuns) who are not papal enclosed, but still [i]observe[/i] enclosure. For papal enclosed nuns, which category the PCPAs fall under, it is strictly forbidden to leave the cloister without severe necessity. As I said before, "contemplative" and "cloistered" are basically the same thing.

Mother Angelica's case was very exceptional; God called her to start EWTN, which required her community to be in the public eye and not observe papal enclosure for a time. She had permission to do this temporarily. Now, however, the community has transitioned back into the papal enclosed lifestyle and they do not have an active role in EWTN anymore now that the network is up and running.

I hope this helps. God bless!
[/quote]


So just to clarify...what kind of order was that where my Mother lived at school when she was in elementary school? My Mother had that little chore to dust in the "cloister" but obviously at the age of 10 or so, my Mother of course was not a nun. Was it because the only lay people who were allowed to go in the cloister were kids and the adults or teenagers were not allowed in? I have never understood all this. I think most Catholics are pretty confused about how things work with the nuns. We had nuns at school when I was a kid. They were really quite strict in their lifetyle as they could not eat with lay people or go into the homes of lay people. We had a relative who was a nun and she was not allowed to go inside even the homes of close relatives (e.g., siblings). That same relative was allowed to return home for the funeral of only one grandparent whichever one would pass first. I don't think I ever saw a nun eating or drinking back then. It was all very different back then.

[Buckeye]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='20 April 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1271788189' post='2096858']
Totus Tuus has given you an excellent reply.

If you still have questions about what it means to be a cloistered nun, I recommend checking the Vocation Station phorum, if you haven't already. The phorum is not only for those discerning vocations, but for anyone who wants to learn more about the religious life.

One thing you'll find in the Vocation Station phorum are a lot of links to the Web sites of religious communities--both cloistered and those with "active" apostolates, such as the order of teaching sisters your mother knew as a child. There are so many different Orders of nuns and religious sisters that it can be confusing, because while they have a number of things in common, they also have some important differences. Even among cloistered nuns, there are Orders, such as the Carmelite nuns, who generally only talk to people through a screen or grille, while there are other cloistered nuns who are separated only by some kind of low wall etc. in the visitors room, and might meet the public and shake hands etc, but still remain behind the low wall. And, there are other cloistered nuns who might meet the public face-to-face, for example, when offering retreats. But, the nuns themselves still remain within the enclosure.
[/quote]

I read your page and the description of how you live with your strictly "cloistered" cats. That was hilarious. I have a friend who has cats like that. My friend is a third order Carmelite and has no television. So her apartment is nice and quiet for the cats.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Buckeye' date='20 April 2010 - 09:14 PM' timestamp='1271812475' post='2097107']
So just to clarify...what kind of order was that where my Mother lived at school when she was in elementary school? My Mother had that little chore to dust in the "cloister" but obviously at the age of 10 or so, my Mother of course was not a nun. Was it because the only lay people who were allowed to go in the cloister were kids and the adults or teenagers were not allowed in? I have never understood all this. I think most Catholics are pretty confused about how things work with the nuns. We had nuns at school when I was a kid. They were really quite strict in their lifetyle as they could not eat with lay people or go into the homes of lay people. We had a relative who was a nun and she was not allowed to go inside even the homes of close relatives (e.g., siblings). That same relative was allowed to return home for the funeral of only one grandparent whichever one would pass first. I don't think I ever saw a nun eating or drinking back then. It was all very different back then.
[/quote]

In you mother's case, those were active nuns (since they were her teachers... they were her teachers, right?). What they called their "cloister" probably just referred to the part of the convent in which they lived. That is the basic meaning of "cloister," but for cloistered/contemplative nuns it refers to the whole area they need to confine themselves to-- all of their grounds, which are normally surrounded by a wall. I don't really know why they had your mom dust in there, but I don't [i]think[/i] there is anything canonically wrong about that, because active nuns (which are the counterparts of cloistered/contemplative nuns) don't observe the aforementioned tradition of papal enclosure. Nursing nuns, teaching nuns, etc., fall under the category of "active" -- thus it'd be unrealistic for them to observe papal enclosure!

Case in point: I was an extern sister at the Alabama community. We had our own "cloister," which was the area in which we lived, but by virtue of our position as externs (meaning we did the errands and grocery shopping for the whole community and took care of the external parts of the shrine), our "cloister" didn't fall under the same regulations as the cloister where the other nuns lived, adjacent to us. The extern sisters, while observing the same lifestyle and charism, don't take exactly the same vows, either, because they don't observe papal enclosure.

I hope that didn't make it even more confusing, though.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Totus Tuus

[sistersintigo]

[quote name='Buckeye' date='20 April 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1271783978' post='2096836']
Can I ask a question? It was pointed out in one of the posts that I don't know much about cloistered nuns. Basically all I know is that they live in convents and don't come out unless it's an emergency (to go to the hospital or if there convent would catch fire, etc.). However, there must be different forms of being cloistered or perhaps different degrees.


So is Mother Angelica's order a lesser degree of cloistered? Are there degrees of being cloistered. I know that my Mother, when she grew up in a school run by nuns had a little chore to go to the "cloister" to dust the floors and furniture. She thought it was a privelege because the nuns often had "goodies" (e.g., hard boiled eggs, candy, etc.) that my Mother could get by doing the chores for the nuns. But those nuns were not inside the convent all the time. Those nuns taught the girls in school and took care of the infirmary, cooked for the children, etc. So they were out and about a lot.

So I suppose I am confused about whit it means to be a "cloistered nun."
[/quote]
My heart goes out to you! No wonder....
A couple of remarks on this topic. History has required nuns to adapt, a LOT, over these many centuries. There was a period in the Roman Catholic church when it was frowned upon for vowed religious women to have an active apostolate outside the cloister -- oh, sure, the MEN could have it, but not the women. Rome had much temporal power then. Centuries passed, power shifted (in the sense of human society and nations), and even the Vatican and Rome had to adapt to where the power was, so this even had an effect on nuns.
One of my favorite examples is the arrival, in North America, of the Nuns of the Order of Preachers/Dominicans. Today there are many United States congregations of Dominican women who have active apostolates, teaching for instance, and their motherhouses/generalates are here in the US. Every last one of them has some parallel, or in many cases, an actual lineage, back to Europe. Many Dominican congregations of women pride themselves on being offshoots of the Regensburg Tree, as they formed out of the dispersal of European Dominican nuns who responded to the US demand for teachers of European-American Catholic immigrants. THe thing is that Holy Cross, in Regensburg, is a strictly cloistered Second Order Dominican monastery of nuns -- and history made this monastery the ancestor of Third Order Regular active-apostolate Dominican sisters.
The Internet has generous amounts of information on apostolates that are active versus the contemplative life (which some say is an apostolate in its own right). Much of this pertains to specific religious orders within the Catholic Church, so the webpages of these orders can tell you a lot.

[Buckeye]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='21 April 2010 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1271821388' post='2097178']
In you mother's case, those were active nuns (since they were her teachers... they were her teachers, right?). What they called their "cloister" probably just referred to the part of the convent in which they lived. That is the basic meaning of "cloister," but for cloistered/contemplative nuns it refers to the whole area they need to confine themselves to-- all of their grounds, which are normally surrounded by a wall. I don't really know why they had your mom dust in there, but I don't [i]think[/i] there is anything canonically wrong about that, because active nuns (which are the counterparts of cloistered/contemplative nuns) don't observe the aforementioned tradition of papal enclosure. Nursing nuns, teaching nuns, etc., fall under the category of "active" -- thus it'd be unrealistic for them to observe papal enclosure! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img]

Case in point: I was an extern sister at the Alabama community. We had our own "cloister," which was the area in which we lived, but by virtue of our position as externs (meaning we did the errands and grocery shopping for the whole community and took care of the external parts of the shrine), our "cloister" didn't fall under the same regulations as the cloister where the other nuns lived, adjacent to us. The extern sisters, while observing the same lifestyle and charism, don't take exactly the same vows, either, because they don't observe papal enclosure.

I hope that didn't make it even more confusing, though. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/P.gif[/img]
[/quote]

The nuns where my Mother attended school were there all the time because the girls were always there (24/7 all year round). The nuns were the teachers, yes, but also they had nuns who cooked and worked in the kitchen, sewed the girls dresses, washed, and took care of sick kids in the infirmary. My Mother told us that one poor nun had charge of play time. When play time for the kids was over, the nun had a big bell that she would ring to notify the girls they needed to stop playing to go to the dining room, homework, or to the chapel, etc. Of course, those little girls were sometimes mischievous and would pay no attention to the poor nun with the bell and the poor woman would just keep ringing the bell as the girls would laugh asthey saw the nun get more and more frustrated by the girls not behaving. Even kids under the 24/7 control of nuns, those kids could be naughty.

The whole staff of the place were nuns except for a nurse who worked the night shift up in the infirmary and the only males they would ever see were Johnny the janitor/maintenance man, the very elderly Monsignor, and some altar boys who would come over from the boys' school.to serve Mass.

The kids rarely left the school. Once my Mother had to go to the hospital for a few days to have a tonsillectomy and about once a year they took the kids to the circus. Since the place was on a beach, the kids went swimming in the ocean every day in summer. Sometimes the nuns would swim at the beach by themselves and my Mother said the girls used to watch them from the building even though they really weren't supposed to. My Mother used to tell us the most interesting stories. I could make a book out of all the stories my Mother told us. Some of the stories are sad, some are holy and religious, and some are just plain funny.

[Cherie]

Just to clarify, also many active communities of Sisters consider the part of the convent where they live that is referred to as the "cloister" not to be accessible to outsiders -- except if necessary, as in the case of a workman, etc. When I was in religious life in an active community, we were not allowed to let ANY laypersons into the part of our convent that was the "cloister" - it was even in our constitutions. If that was the case with the community your mother volunteered for, she was definitely privileged to be there!

Also, Buckeye, welcome to Phatmass!

I can imagine how difficult it would be to have a community of nuns leave your diocese - we have a Passionist priest here in our diocese who operates a beautiful retreat house (all by himself! he used to have others with him, but they have since either died or become ill), and his community is thinking about sending him elsewhere. We all would be DEVASTATED if he left, so I can understand your heartbreak!

But God provides, remember that! There is a new semi-cloistered community of nuns in the Diocese of Columbus, the [url="http://www.childrenofmary.net/home.html"]Children of Mary[/url] - please pray that they will get many more vocations! They are a beautiful community and I'm sure they would love your support!

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='21 April 2010 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1271861670' post='2097312']
Just to clarify, also many active communities of Sisters consider the part of the convent where they live that is referred to as the "cloister" not to be accessible to outsiders -- except if necessary, as in the case of a workman, etc. When I was in religious life in an active community, we were not allowed to let ANY laypersons into the part of our convent that was the "cloister" - it was even in our constitutions. If that was the case with the community your mother volunteered for, she was definitely privileged to be there! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

[/quote]

Just to back up what CherieMadame has posted, I have lived across the street from a convent of retired active Sisters (former teachers), and I have never been past the visitor's parlor. Since it is partly a nursing home, they do have some "lay" medical personnel and some volunteers, but other than that, I don't know that other visitors are ever allowed inside unless they have a specific job to do.

Edited April 21, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='21 April 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1271880354' post='2097473']
Just to back up what CherieMadame has posted, I have lived across the street from a convent of retired active Sisters (former teachers), and I have never been past the visitor's parlor. Since it is partly a nursing home, they do have some "lay" medical personnel and some volunteers, but other than that, I don't know that other visitors are ever allowed inside unless they have a specific job to do.
[/quote]

Yeah, it is pretty strange that some little kid would be asked to dust inside the cloister! I hope I didn't make it sound like only in papal enclosed communities are cloisters reserved for the community. I just don't know if there's anything in canon law about it -- as in CM's case, it might be something that varies according to the constitutions with active communities.

[Skinzo]

Welcome Buckeye. I can't take sides in this particular controversy but I like the points you made about how TRULY difficult religious life is in other parts of the world and how hard it was for St. Clare. This is something that Americans need to reflect on, especially those who want to dedicate themselves to religious life. I sometimes wonder just how many of us could stand up to the privations the convents and monasteries of the third world experience. THAT is really a challenge. I think anyone considering religious life should do some volunteer time in a place like India. A brilliant scholar I used to know who looked forward to a life as a theology professor once did that. I think he found that the year he spent with the Missionaries of Charity was more of an education than anything he learned in pursuit of his doctorate. He really changed as a person in that one year too, and for the better.


S.

[Saint Therese]

This thread is sad and shows how little people really understand about religious and monastic life. I"m not saying to be ugly to anyone.

[Buckeye]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='21 April 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1271903671' post='2097703']
This thread is sad and shows how little people really understand about religious and monastic life. I"m not saying to be ugly to anyone.
[/quote]

[Buckeye]

I admit I don't know much about the nuns and monks. For lay people nowadays, this would seem completely understandable because there are so few monks and nuns today. I think it is ok to ask questions and learn about things. I therefore don't see how that is "sad" as was just posted. I also would say that my Mother (when she got the job to dust in the nuns' cloister at her school) was thrilled to get the job. The kids who got that chore considered it a plum job...not heavy work and the nuns were nice and gave the girls a share of the candies and other treats they nuns had in their quarters, treats normally not given to the kids in those days. My Mother was thrilled to land that job.

[Guest LambertOP]

[quote name='Buckeye' date='22 April 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1271965469' post='2098148']
I admit I don't know much about the nuns and monks. For lay people nowadays, this would seem completely understandable because there are so few monks and nuns today. I think it is ok to ask questions and learn about things. I therefore don't see how that is "sad" as was just posted. I also would say that my Mother (when she got the job to dust in the nuns' cloister at her school) was thrilled to get the job. The kids who got that chore considered it a plum job...not heavy work and the nuns were nice and gave the girls a share of the candies and other treats they nuns had in their quarters, treats normally not given to the kids in those days. My Mother was thrilled to land that job.
[/quote]

[size="3"][font="Times New Roman"]I found this thread as a result of trying to make sense of the cheerful newsletter I received from the St. Joseph PCPA announcing their move to NC. They seemed to be "shaking the dust off their feet" as they left Portsmouth for greener pastures and I, like many other locals, are puzzled and upset.
[/font][/size]
[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]I began visiting the extern sisters and spending time before the Host in the 1960's, when the community was located in a mansion atop a hill overlooking town. When the large house became unlivable for the aging nuns (it was never conducive to their vocation), the diocese of Columbus and the Friends of St. Joseph Monastery, of which Mother M. Agnes had made me a lifetime member, built, furnished, and maintained a new monastery at the back of that hill. In furtherance of the community's desire for privacy, following the arrival of new nuns from Hanceville, rural land was donated to the monastery, but money for the enclosure never appeared. (That land is now listed for sale on the stjosephmonastery.com website.)[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]The community celebrated new vocations, but didn't seem to retain them. Perhaps a new location and a hoped-for monastery for 24 will turn that around. Or not. Some vocations are forever, some call us away for a time of growth and nurturing, and we are led on to other service to God in the Church and the world. Likewise, some foundations are forever, and some are for awhile, to nurture and pray for a community, before moving on. Like losing an old love, it's hard to see them go and their joy in a new situation can hurt when we're the one left behind.[/size][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]Buckeye, let's try to wish them well. Please visit Sr. M. Vincentia and Sr. M. Carlton at Mohun Hall at the Springs – they're happy with their home and delighted to have visitors. While Mother Mary Agnes (RIP) cherished her privacy there, these sisters realize the Lord has led them to a new place in their lives of devotion. They continue to pray for us, along with their Dominican, PCJ, and other sisters, but with the special charism of devotion to the Sacrament of the Altar.[/size][/font]

[Guest emily123]

[quote name='Buckeye' date='19 April 2010 - 06:00 PM' timestamp='1271714425' post='2096405']
Actually, in fact, I was replying to the ORIGINAL post that highlighted the reasons that person saw as the cause of the relocation of these nuns to NC. What was emphasized in the ORIGINAL post was that there was not enough space in the convent for the 4 nuns and that there was little or no support to build a new monastery on a large piece of land in central Ohio - donated land in fact. In addition, the ORIGINAL post stated that the nuns did not have sufficient service from chaplains. They had Father Jospeh Klee in recent years and prior to his being there, Father Patterson (RIP). These are two of the most holy and sincere priests of the diocese of Columbus. Therefore, they had wonderful chaplains. Bishop Griffin (emeritus) and Bishop Campbell (currently in office) gave wonderful chaplains to the nuns. In addition, the nuns' newsletter was replete with photos of numerous priests who would stop by from other dioceses and even fairly frequent visits from teh MFVA friars from EWTN in Alabama. So I was only trying to correct the record by providing the facts that have been very publicly known in the diocese. These things were even publicized by the nuns themselves on their website and in their newsletters. As far as dioceses that need religious, I noted several (at least 7-8) orders of sisters/nuns in the diocese of Charlotte listed on the diocese's website as being within the diocese. This seems possibly even more communities than there are in the diocese of Columbus even though, as you mention, Ohio has a much larger proportion of Catholics. Portsmouth, Ohio is near Kentucky and the Ohio River and very low in Catholics and what a wonderful thing it would have been to have those nuns there as an example to the non-Catholic population. One of the reasons that the original posts on this forum gave for the need of a new monastery is that the children in the school next door made noise which would disturb the prayers. I attend weekday Mass at a parish with a school with a few hundred kids in the school. There is also a Eucharistic Adoration chapel on the premises of the parish. I have rarely even noticed the noise from the kids on the playground. We are often in church and the Eucharisitic Adoration chapel when the kids play outdoors. Also, the diocese of Columbus covers 23 of Ohio's 88 counties and there is only ONE community of Sisters who wear their habits and veils (the Carmelite Sisters of the Aged and Infirm who operate a large assisted living facility and extended care facility for the elderly in one of the the eastern Columbus suburbs). Perhaps all these reasons mentioned by people in this forum are not what the nuns think are the true reasons for leaving the diocese. So that is why I thought to contribute factual information that I know first hand to be true.
[/quote]

[Guest emily123]

[quote name='Buckeye' date='21 April 2010 - 10:39 AM' timestamp='1271860796' post='2097305']
The nuns where my Mother attended school were there all the time because the girls were always there (24/7 all year round). The nuns were the teachers, yes, but also they had nuns who cooked and worked in the kitchen, sewed the girls dresses, washed, and took care of sick kids in the infirmary. My Mother told us that one poor nun had charge of play time. When play time for the kids was over, the nun had a big bell that she would ring to notify the girls they needed to stop playing to go to the dining room, homework, or to the chapel, etc. Of course, those little girls were sometimes mischievous and would pay no attention to the poor nun with the bell and the poor woman would just keep ringing the bell as the girls would laugh asthey saw the nun get more and more frustrated by the girls not behaving. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] Even kids under the 24/7 control of nuns, those kids could be naughty. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

The whole staff of the place were nuns except for a nurse who worked the night shift up in the infirmary and the only males they would ever see were Johnny the janitor/maintenance man, the very elderly Monsignor, and some altar boys who would come over from the boys' school.to serve Mass.

The kids rarely left the school. Once my Mother had to go to the hospital for a few days to have a tonsillectomy and about once a year they took the kids to the circus. Since the place was on a beach, the kids went swimming in the ocean every day in summer. Sometimes the nuns would swim at the beach by themselves and my Mother said the girls used to watch them from the building even though they really weren't supposed to. My Mother used to tell us the most interesting stories. I could make a book out of all the stories my Mother told us. Some of the stories are sad, some are holy and religious, and some are just plain funny.
[/quote]

Buckeye, I am in North Carolina and we really, really need the Poor Clares. There are maybe 100 nuns total in North Carolina if even that much. 100 nuns for 8 million people. With an increasing Catholic population. Ohio has many,many religious communities and many, many Catholic organizations. My state has almost none. True, there may be 15 or so religious communities in our state, but what the website of the Diocese doesn't say is that these religious communities consist of maybe 1-2 sisters living in a house with no habit. [i]Almost none of the religious communities in the Diocese of Raleigh, where I live, wear a habit. [/i]I think there is maybe 1 that does, with perhaps 4-5 sisters. You clearly do not know our situation in North Carolina. [i]Almost none of our sisters are faithful to the Pope[/i]. Yes, the motherhouse of the Sisters of Mercy is in NC but they are as a whole very radical and wear no habit. Many of them advocate women priests, so they are not exactly something for our state to be proud of! North Carolina was the only state in the Union with no contemplative women until the Poor Clares came. The Poor Clares are needed by our state very badly. Portsmouth may not have many religious communities, but Ohio, I am certain, has more nuns than 100 and can certainly spare a few for us. Most people in NC are Baptists, not Catholic. I would dare to say a majority of people in Ohio are Catholic and there is no shortage of facilities and resources for them already there. Don't be stingy!!