Ohio Poor Clares Move To Nc

[zunshynn]

For the record, I believe [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=103344&view=findpost&p=2067915"]this[/url] is the thread buckeye was referring to, and I believe she's specifically upset about my post. However, I NEVER said anything about "shortcomings" in the Diocese of Columbus. As I said, I think it was a difficult decision for them to make. I have to admit I wonder why you would infer such a thing from my post when I in no way implied that...

For a cloistered religious community to be able to live the life that they're called to, they need to be able to live a cloistered life, which includes being apart from I'd suggest reading the document Verbi Sponsa if you're interested in getting a better idea of what Enclosure is and how the Church asks for cloistered religious to observe it.

The way you're talking about this really shows how little you actually know about the discernment process... Vocations are not "recruitments". It's not like joining a sodality, or joining the army. People enter religious life to discern WHETHER GOD CALLS THEM THERE. Some of them will leave. Most of the time, because that simply was not their vocation.

A certain number of solemn professed sisters are necessary to begin a foundation. This is in accordance with the directives of the Holy See, and laid out in an individual order's constitutions, and the PCPA are no different. You can't start a foundation with a bunch of junior professed and novice sisters. And a monastery can't let all of its solemn professed sisters start foundations and leave a bunch of novices and juniors off to form and fend for themselves. But that really is irrelevant... as Totus Tuus said, what it basically boils down to, is God calls one community to something, and other communities to other things. They have to answer to God as to whether or not they were open to what He was asking of them.

PS if you continue to post, would you be so kind as to break your posts up into paragraphs? They are rather difficult to read.

[Buckeye]

You seem to be very upset by my just raising some questions about how things went down the way they did. I am just saying that, from the things I had read in the nuns' own newsletter and the things being mentioned here, a new convent with a large expanse of land and peace and quiet away from the city would have made all the difference in the world. Tell me that they would have moved if someone in Ohio with a few million bucks had built a new monastery for them in Ohio. The proof of this will be seeing what happens in North Carolina in the next few years. We might soon see what kind of monastery will be built. It DOES say that the convent they are in currently is only temporary. It seems that they moved there thinking that the convent they would eventually be living at in NC would be far more conducive to their vision of what a Poor Clare should be. It seems that this vision includes a larger convent with several amenities that weren't being provided in southern Ohio in such a poor city as Portsmouth. Truly the diocese of Columbus does NOT have near the number of consecrated religious as you seem to believe. It seems a pity that the old timers in the Poor Clares in Portsmouth endured all the conditions through thick and thin for 56 years and only a few years after arriving there, the nuns from Alabama close down the convent. One migth wonder what the future plans of the monastery are in North Carolina. I would be very surprised if they are not soon announcing a major building project to outfit a new monastery. This also happened when they went to Arizona from Alabama. I have seen pictures of the Arizona PCPA monastery and it is fabulous. By the way, I have actually met the little old PCPA nuns who used to live for years down at the monastery in Portsmouth. The one little nun sits long parts of her day in her chair in front of the tabernacle. She is pretty isolated because the nursing home where she is at is run by Dominican Sisters for religous of all different orders. The Dominicans do a wonderful job of it but I am sure, for a VERY elderly Poor Clare nun, it can never come close to living in her own order. I felt pretty sad for that old PCPA nun in the nursing home when I met her. I am only a lay person and therefore, as you point out, perhaps not qualified to voice my opinion here but I thought that a forum like this was a place to bounce things around without being in trouble. I mean no harm. I am trying to figure my way through all the things we see going on in the Church today, especially amongst the hierarchy, clergy, and religious. One hardly knows what to think or say anymore.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Buckeye:

I understand how you must feel. It clearly has made you very sad (and frustrated) that a group of nuns whom you have grown to love has moved to another state. As others on Phatmass know, I live across the street from a convent of retired religious sisters, and I would feel bereft if they were to leave.

I also can understand your frustration if there has been misinformation about the reasons for the move. As others have also said, I never saw the original post to which you referred in your posts, so I can't address any possible misinformation.

Can I make one small suggestion? I have read all your posts, but personally, I find posts easier to read and understand if they are written in paragraph form. I'm also afraid that there may be some readers who will look at a page of text that is not separated into paragraphs, and will just skip over it without reading it, because the text is harder for them to read and understand. Just an idea to keep in mind for your future posts, because I want as many Phatmass folks to read your posts as possible.

Since you obviously care for these nuns a great deal, I know that you, and the rest of us, wish them happiness and growth in their community, no matter where they are located. And, we will be praying for Portsmouth Catholic community, as well, that perhaps new religious communities will start or move there in the future.

Edited April 20, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Buckeye]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='20 April 2010 - 12:01 AM' timestamp='1271732463' post='2096539']
Buckeye:

I understand how you must feel. It clearly has made you very sad (and frustrated) that a group of nuns whom you have grown to love has moved to another state. As others on Phatmass know, I live across the street from a convent of retired religious sisters, and I would feel bereft if they were to leave.

I also can understand your frustration if there has been misinformation about the reasons for the move. As others have also said, I never saw the original post to which you referred in your posts, so I can't address any possible misinformation.

Can I make one small suggestion? I have read all your posts, but personally, I find posts easier to read and understand if they are written in paragraph form. I'm also afraid that there may be some readers who will look at a page of text that is not separated into paragraphs, and will just skip over it without reading it, because the text is harder for them to read and understand. Just an idea to keep in mind for your future posts, because I want as many Phatmass folks to read your posts as possible.

Since you obviously care for these nuns a great deal, I know that you, and the rest of us, wish them happiness and growth in their community, no matter where they are located. And, we will be praying for Portsmouth Catholic community, as well, that perhaps new religious communities will start or move there in the future.
[/quote]

[Buckeye]

Thanks for your courteous and kind reply. As you can see, some of the replies were not so polite. I only ask that people think about what it would be like if a religious community in their area would depart for reasons as listed by some who have posted here. It seems mainly that the nuns relocated in order to have a better monastery. That's pretty much what the nuns' newsletters have been saying for quite some time.

One of the things mentioned by one of the members of this forum was that the nuns could not handle the noise from the children at the school next door. I mentioned this to a holy man this morning after Mass. His only comment was, "Haven't we silenced the children enough by committing all the abortions we have performed in this country?" The voices of children are not disturbing to most people. It's a shame that this was a problem for the nuns at the monastery. The wife of the man I just mentioned added that a school is totally quiet when the kids go home and on weekends and nights. Also, Ohio law requires the children to be in school classrooms and not playing on the playground for most of the school day.

Also, someone else mentioned that the monastery had no privacy and that people were looking at the nuns when they were outdoors. How could looking at one's neighbor distract the neighbor from prayers. I go outside to work on the lawn and perform other tasks. I hope that my neighbors see me and look out for me as I would look out for them.

Perhaps all this is a miscommunication and there are other unknown reasons for the move. However, I do know for a fact that the nuns publicly said that they would have to move if they could not get a better monastery than the one they were living at in Portsmouth.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Buckeye' date='20 April 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1271772074' post='2096743']
Thanks for your courteous and kind reply. As you can see, some of the replies were not so polite. I only ask that people think about what it would be like if a religious community in their area would depart for reasons as listed by some who have posted here. It seems mainly that the nuns relocated in order to have a better monastery. That's pretty much what the nuns' newsletters have been saying for quite some time.

One of the things mentioned by one of the members of this forum was that the nuns could not handle the noise from the children at the school next door. I mentioned this to a holy man this morning after Mass. His only comment was, "Haven't we silenced the children enough by committing all the abortions we have performed in this country?" The voices of children are not disturbing to most people. It's a shame that this was a problem for the nuns at the monastery. The wife of the man I just mentioned added that a school is totally quiet when the kids go home and on weekends and nights. Also, Ohio law requires the children to be in school classrooms and not playing on the playground for most of the school day.

Also, someone else mentioned that the monastery had no privacy and that people were looking at the nuns when they were outdoors. How could looking at one's neighbor distract the neighbor from prayers. I go outside to work on the lawn and perform other tasks. I hope that my neighbors see me and look out for me as I would look out for them.

Perhaps all this is a miscommunication and there are other unknown reasons for the move. However, I do know for a fact that the nuns publicly said that they would have to move if they could not get a better monastery than the one they were living at in Portsmouth.
[/quote]

I guess I just fail to see why it bothers you so much that cloistered nuns feel they need more privacy and less noise.

But oh well, we can agree to disagree. I have no hard feelings, it is just frustrating when people jump to conclusions, especially when they have never experienced the life for themselves, and thus don't really know what goes on in the hearts and minds of nuns who have committed themselves to four walls for the rest of their life for the sake of the salvation of souls.

God bless.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

+JMJ
[quote name='Buckeye' date='20 April 2010 - 09:01 AM' timestamp='1271772074' post='2096743']
Thanks for your courteous and kind reply. As you can see, some of the replies were not so polite. I only ask that people think about what it would be like if a religious community in their area would depart for reasons as listed by some who have posted here. It seems mainly that the nuns relocated in order to have a better monastery. That's pretty much what the nuns' newsletters have been saying for quite some time.

One of the things mentioned by one of the members of this forum was that the nuns could not handle the noise from the children at the school next door. I mentioned this to a holy man this morning after Mass. His only comment was, "Haven't we silenced the children enough by committing all the abortions we have performed in this country?" The voices of children are not disturbing to most people. It's a shame that this was a problem for the nuns at the monastery. The wife of the man I just mentioned added that a school is totally quiet when the kids go home and on weekends and nights. Also, Ohio law requires the children to be in school classrooms and not playing on the playground for most of the school day.

Also, someone else mentioned that the monastery had no privacy and that people were looking at the nuns when they were outdoors. How could looking at one's neighbor distract the neighbor from prayers. I go outside to work on the lawn and perform other tasks. I hope that my neighbors see me and look out for me as I would look out for them.

Perhaps all this is a miscommunication and there are other unknown reasons for the move. However, I do know for a fact that the nuns publicly said that they would have to move if they could not get a better monastery than the one they were living at in Portsmouth.
[/quote]

After reading all of this, it really seems like there is some miscommunication about all of this. I say we rejoice that the community will continue and pray for them as they begin anew. God's Will is being done, and let it be done!

I'm sure it is very difficult for you and your local community as the Sisters leave, but I'm sure that it is quite difficult for the sisters to leave their home of many years as well.

And in regards to having neighbors looking in: I imagine it would feel like being in some sort of sideshow. Religious Sisters in the habit are such a rarity these days and cause attention wherever they go, whether or not they want it. For Cloistered religious, having people being able to see into the enclosure (even if it is outside) is like an invasion of the enclosure. The World is invading the place where they are supposed to be hidden in the world. I don't think it is a matter of distracting from prayers. It's a matter of having their enclosure invaded. Their enclosure is sacred. A phatmasser sometime ago had described the cloister as the 'rib cage' that protected the 'heart of the church' (the cloistered religious) from the pressures and attacks of the world. So, having a lack of privacy in their own enclosure would be just like someone who is missing some ribs. Sure, the ribs will still protect the heart, but there is a feeling a vulnerability knowing that all is not as it should be.

For you and me, neighbors look at us like anyone else. The Sisters are not there to be a show when they are out doing work outside or taking some time. The cloistered life is so radically different from the life of an average American that it can become a show. I'm sure their neighbors keep an eye out for them for the Sister's safety and well being, but not everyone has the best of intentions and curiosity gets the better of many people (including me!).

And just to clarify, I have never been a sister, but God willing, I will be a cloistered sister. Zunshynn, Totus Tuus, and HisChild have all been PCPAs and have a voice of knowledge, and I would even say authority in these matters, as they know the internal workings of this order.

You have good intentions and sometimes the internet has a way of twisting words and intentions. I hope that you do not take what has been said as is just because it can be quite difficult to express some things with charity when you only have text to use. Please stick around. We could certainly use another soul in love with the Church. There are many knowledgeable people here and lots of information to be discovered. And, we don't bite... although things can get a little rowdy around here. Welcome to Phatmass! I hope you will stay with us! Welcome to the phamily!

Edited April 20, 2010 by FutureNunJMJ

[Saint Therese]

The truth is people outside of the life of a monastery or convent could always second guess and judge the decisions the community makes, but this would be a rash judgement- since those outside don't know all of the factors that went into making the decision. And honestly, whether or not you agree with their decision is unimportant. There are people who have the specific job of watching over and guiding these sisters-bishops, superiors,etc. Its not our job. I have no doubt that these sisters made the decision to move with much prayer and probably heartache. The fact that their move happened so quickly might lead one to think that it was indeed the Lord's will ( even though its not our business to judge such matters).
I think we ought to at least give them the benefit of the doubt.

[sistersintigo]

[quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='20 April 2010 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1271773997' post='2096754']
+JMJ


After reading all of this, it really seems like there is some miscommunication about all of this. I say we rejoice that the community will continue and pray for them as they begin anew. God's Will is being done, and let it be done!

I'm sure it is very difficult for you and your local community as the Sisters leave, but I'm sure that it is quite difficult for the sisters to leave their home of many years as well.


You have good intentions and sometimes the internet has a way of twisting words and intentions. I hope that you do not take what has been said as is just because it can be quite difficult to express some things with charity when you only have text to use. Please stick around. We could certainly use another soul in love with the Church. There are many knowledgeable people here and lots of information to be discovered. And, we don't bite... although things can get a little rowdy around here. Welcome to Phatmass! I hope you will stay with us! Welcome to the phamily!
[/quote]
About time! This tone of voice is much needed on this topic.

Link to the community's latest newsletter:
http://stjosephmonastery.com/newsletter_forms/April2010.pdf

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='20 April 2010 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1271773997' post='2096754']

You have good intentions and sometimes the internet has a way of twisting words and intentions. I hope that you do not take what has been said as is just because it can be quite difficult to express some things with charity when you only have text to use. Please stick around. We could certainly use another soul in love with the Church. There are many knowledgeable people here and lots of information to be discovered. And, we don't bite... although things can get a little rowdy around here. Welcome to Phatmass! I hope you will stay with us! Welcome to the phamily!
[/quote]

I agree with this entirely. +1

Welcome to the phamily, Buckeye. We might not always agree around here (like right now, lol) but that doesn't mean we want you to go away or anything!

[Buckeye]

[quote name='sistersintigo' date='20 April 2010 - 11:52 AM' timestamp='1271775124' post='2096762']
About time! This tone of voice is much needed on this topic.

Link to the community's latest newsletter:
[url="http://stjosephmonastery.com/newsletter_forms/April2010.pdf"]http://stjosephmonas...s/April2010.pdf[/url]
[/quote]


Gee, thanks to those who just posted kind and welcoming remarks. I had a feeling to quit being here because I felt a bit intimidated due to the comments. I would only like to add that indeed I have been to the city of Portsmouth, OH at least a couple of times. It is a small town - no metropolis. It's not filled with tourists who would be prone to look in on the nuns. It is a quiet sleepy little place. Most of the people there aren't Catholic and, after initially seeing a nun, they would probably have little interest in peering at them. I also noted that someone just said it was a very rapid decision for the nuns to leave the diocese. I have followed this issue for at least 2-3 years and the nuns have often mentioned that they wanted to build a new monastery. It has been common knowledge for quite some time that the nuns would leave the Diocese of Columbus if the new monastery did not get built. So it was not all of a sudden.

It's kind of sad that we could not build them a monastery but, gosh, things are really bad in the economy right now, particularly in southern Ohio where Portsmouth is. I wish they would have stuck it out for a little while longer when the people in the diocese of Columbus could have come up with the right amount of money needed to build the new convent and keep the nuns.

Again thanks for those who posted the nice comments.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Buckeye' date='20 April 2010 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1271778241' post='2096793']
Gee, thanks to those who just posted kind and welcoming remarks. I had a feeling to quit being here because I felt a bit intimidated due to the comments. I would only like to add that indeed I have been to the city of Portsmouth, OH at least a couple of times. It is a small town - no metropolis. It's not filled with tourists who would be prone to look in on the nuns. It is a quiet sleepy little place. Most of the people there aren't Catholic and, after initially seeing a nun, they would probably have little interest in peering at them. I also noted that someone just said it was a very rapid decision for the nuns to leave the diocese. I have followed this issue for at least 2-3 years and the nuns have often mentioned that they wanted to build a new monastery. It has been common knowledge for quite some time that the nuns would leave the Diocese of Columbus if the new monastery did not get built. So it was not all of a sudden.

It's kind of sad that we could not build them a monastery but, gosh, things are really bad in the economy right now, particularly in southern Ohio where Portsmouth is. I wish they would have stuck it out for a little while longer when the people in the diocese of Columbus could have come up with the right amount of money needed to build the new convent and keep the nuns.

Again thanks for those who posted the nice comments.
[/quote]

It was not the people of Columbus' job to build them a monastery. It was and is God's job, and he is taking care of it... in NC.

Respectfully, we might not like how he is, but this is the road he has taken.

From my understanding these sisters prayed about this and discerned this for an entire year. They didn't just make the decision in the matter of a month or so. They prayed for a whole year about it. They are Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration. They spend their whole day in front of Jesus Christ Himself truly present right there before them in the Blessed Sacrament. They adore Him. They speak with Him. They most of all, listen to Him. And I don't know about you, but I certainly don't do that all day every day, and so what right do I have to say what God's will was in this matter when I haven't been taking it to him for the last year as they have and listening for an answer every single day and every single moment?

I am confident that their decision to move was not based on their wants and desires and comforts but rather on the will of God.

These are women who have left everything to serve Christ and do His will. They have left worldly pleasures we take part in. They have left their family; those they idolize and given up children and a husband. They have given over all of their possessions and even their very will. They are subject to Christ. What has hit me the wrong way here (and why I think there is some slight hostility here) is the idea that these women made this decision based on selfish motives or are going where the money is. No, they are going where Christ desires them to go and not for money but rather because Christ desires them to go there.

We have to remember these are the same sisters that had it not been for them going to Portsmouth and leaving the well-established monastery of AL with the comforts it offers that Portsmouth does not then the monastery would have closed years ago. These sisters are not seeking their own comfort. They are seeking the will of God.

And we just have to come to terms with it: God moved them to NC or at least allowed it. We have to trust Him.

[Buckeye]

Can I ask a question? It was pointed out in one of the posts that I don't know much about cloistered nuns. Basically all I know is that they live in convents and don't come out unless it's an emergency (to go to the hospital or if there convent would catch fire, etc.). However, there must be different forms of being cloistered or perhaps different degrees.

I was listening to Raymond Arroyo on Teresa Tomeo's radio program and he mentioned Mother Angelica is a "contemplative nun." Is that something different than being "cloistered?" I didn't think Mother Angelica was cloistered because she ran a television & radio network, traveled (even abroad), gave talks in other places outside the monastery and even out of state.

Did she now become a cloistered nun. Or is she still as she was before as a contemplative nun and just not seen because of her ilnesses over the past couple years. We used to have some cloistered nuns in the city when I was growing up. I think they were the Carmelites. They were very strict and could never been seen except on rare occasions when some people were permitted to go there and see them behind a screen.

So is Mother Angelica's order a lesser degree of cloistered? Are there degrees of being cloistered. I know that my Mother, when she grew up in a school run by nuns had a little chore to go to the "cloister" to dust the floors and furniture. She thought it was a privelege because the nuns often had "goodies" (e.g., hard boiled eggs, candy, etc.) that my Mother could get by doing the chores for the nuns. But those nuns were not inside the convent all the time. Those nuns taught the girls in school and took care of the infirmary, cooked for the children, etc. So they were out and about a lot.

So I suppose I am confused about whit it means to be a "cloistered nun."

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Buckeye' date='20 April 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1271783978' post='2096836']
Can I ask a question? It was pointed out in one of the posts that I don't know much about cloistered nuns. Basically all I know is that they live in convents and don't come out unless it's an emergency (to go to the hospital or if there convent would catch fire, etc.). However, there must be different forms of being cloistered or perhaps different degrees.

I was listening to Raymond Arroyo on Teresa Tomeo's radio program and he mentioned Mother Angelica is a "contemplative nun." Is that something different than being "cloistered?" I didn't think Mother Angelica was cloistered because she ran a television & radio network, traveled (even abroad), gave talks in other places outside the monastery and even out of state.

Did she now become a cloistered nun. Or is she still as she was before as a contemplative nun and just not seen because of her ilnesses over the past couple years. We used to have some cloistered nuns in the city when I was growing up. I think they were the Carmelites. They were very strict and could never been seen except on rare occasions when some people were permitted to go there and see them behind a screen.

So is Mother Angelica's order a lesser degree of cloistered? Are there degrees of being cloistered. I know that my Mother, when she grew up in a school run by nuns had a little chore to go to the "cloister" to dust the floors and furniture. She thought it was a privelege because the nuns often had "goodies" (e.g., hard boiled eggs, candy, etc.) that my Mother could get by doing the chores for the nuns. But those nuns were not inside the convent all the time. Those nuns taught the girls in school and took care of the infirmary, cooked for the children, etc. So they were out and about a lot.

So I suppose I am confused about whit it means to be a "cloistered nun."
[/quote]

There are different degrees of cloistered in that there are papal enclosed nuns, and nuns (for example, the Passionist nuns) who are not papal enclosed, but still [i]observe[/i] enclosure. For papal enclosed nuns, which category the PCPAs fall under, it is strictly forbidden to leave the cloister without severe necessity. As I said before, "contemplative" and "cloistered" are basically the same thing.

Mother Angelica's case was very exceptional; God called her to start EWTN, which required her community to be in the public eye and not observe papal enclosure for a time. She had permission to do this temporarily. Now, however, the community has transitioned back into the papal enclosed lifestyle and they do not have an active role in EWTN anymore now that the network is up and running.

I hope this helps. God bless!

Edited April 20, 2010 by Totus Tuus

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Buckeye' date='20 April 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1271783978' post='2096836']
Can I ask a question? It was pointed out in one of the posts that I don't know much about cloistered nuns. Basically all I know is that they live in convents and don't come out unless it's an emergency (to go to the hospital or if there convent would catch fire, etc.). However, there must be different forms of being cloistered or perhaps different degrees.

I was listening to Raymond Arroyo on Teresa Tomeo's radio program and he mentioned Mother Angelica is a "contemplative nun." Is that something different than being "cloistered?" I didn't think Mother Angelica was cloistered because she ran a television & radio network, traveled (even abroad), gave talks in other places outside the monastery and even out of state.

Did she now become a cloistered nun. Or is she still as she was before as a contemplative nun and just not seen because of her ilnesses over the past couple years. We used to have some cloistered nuns in the city when I was growing up. I think they were the Carmelites. They were very strict and could never been seen except on rare occasions when some people were permitted to go there and see them behind a screen.

So is Mother Angelica's order a lesser degree of cloistered? Are there degrees of being cloistered. I know that my Mother, when she grew up in a school run by nuns had a little chore to go to the "cloister" to dust the floors and furniture. She thought it was a privelege because the nuns often had "goodies" (e.g., hard boiled eggs, candy, etc.) that my Mother could get by doing the chores for the nuns. But those nuns were not inside the convent all the time. Those nuns taught the girls in school and took care of the infirmary, cooked for the children, etc. So they were out and about a lot.

So I suppose I am confused about whit it means to be a "cloistered nun."
[/quote]

Totus Tuus has given you an excellent reply.

If you still have questions about what it means to be a cloistered nun, I recommend checking the Vocation Station phorum, if you haven't already. The phorum is not only for those discerning vocations, but for anyone who wants to learn more about the religious life.

One thing you'll find in the Vocation Station phorum are a lot of links to the Web sites of religious communities--both cloistered and those with "active" apostolates, such as the order of teaching sisters your mother knew as a child. There are so many different Orders of nuns and religious sisters that it can be confusing, because while they have a number of things in common, they also have some important differences. Even among cloistered nuns, there are Orders, such as the Carmelite nuns, who generally only talk to people through a screen or grille, while there are other cloistered nuns who are separated only by some kind of low wall etc. in the visitors room, and might meet the public and shake hands etc, but still remain behind the low wall. And, there are other cloistered nuns who might meet the public face-to-face, for example, when offering retreats. But, the nuns themselves still remain within the enclosure.