Receiving Jesus In The Hand...not A Good Idea

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='20 April 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1271797284' post='2096937']
It would also be a good idea for individual priests to take the initiative to explain why the norm is and should be reception on the tongue, among the many other awesome things they could talk about. I feel that many priests tend to let these things go because the higher-ups aren't saying anything official. The trouble with that is that for many average parishioners, the priest *is* the Magisterium. Not in any theological sense of course, but the priest in many cases is the average parishioners sole link to the hierarchy of the Church.
[/quote]

iawtc -- completely.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='20 April 2010 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1271797284' post='2096937']
It would also be a good idea for individual priests to take the initiative to explain why the norm is and should be reception on the tongue, among the many other awesome things they could talk about. I feel that many priests tend to let these things go because the higher-ups aren't saying anything official. The trouble with that is that for many average parishioners, the priest *is* the Magisterium. Not in any theological sense of course, but the priest in many cases is the average parishioners sole link to the hierarchy of the Church.
[/quote]

Okay, so then add "better homilies" to that list. Such homilies would address the heresy of modernism, the necessity of frequent Confession, explanation of the Real Presence, and explaining proper reception.

One of our priests who retired a few years ago actually made fun of receiving on the tongue during a homily and alluded to the Holy Spirit being female. That sort of trash has to go.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='20 April 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1271797512' post='2096940']
Okay, so then add "better homilies" to that list. Such homilies would address the heresy of modernism, the necessity of frequent Confession, explanation of the Real Presence, and explaining proper reception.

One of our priests who retired a few years ago actually made fun of receiving on the tongue during a homily and alluded to the Holy Spirit being female. That sort of trash has to go.
[/quote]
You know, I'm not even sure it has to be homilies. These days many parishes have the idea that everyone comes on Sunday and the vast majority of them won't even look their way until next Sunday. This isn't really ideal. It wouldn't be easy, and it would take a long time to get people on board, but I think parishes should really work to get people coming by during the week. Even just for an hour or two for the priest to say something to them, for everyone to get together, for kids to meet other kids... I mean, why not? The local church should be a community as much as a neighbourhood. If I were a priest, that's what I'd work towards.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='20 April 2010 - 06:05 PM' timestamp='1271797512' post='2096940']
Okay, so then add "better homilies" to that list. Such homilies would address the heresy of modernism, the necessity of frequent Confession, explanation of the Real Presence, and explaining proper reception.

[b]One of our priests who retired a few years ago actually made fun of receiving on the tongue during a homily and alluded to the Holy Spirit being female.[/b] That sort of trash has to go.
[/quote]

Wow.

Praise God he's retired... just WOW.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='20 April 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1271791913' post='2096884']
When the priest distributes the Host, his fingers are touching the Host. The paten is used to prevent crumbs from getting on the floor if one receives on the tongue. But what about the crumbs on the priest's fingers? How does he ensure that not one crumb falls to the floor?
[/quote]

[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/258wm12.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/29b13ko.jpg[/IMG]

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 April 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1271798305' post='2096948']
[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/258wm12.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/29b13ko.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]

How dare you one-up-me-so!

No, actually, those pictures make me really happy.

Even

[HisChildForever]

Lol, thanks to Zun and Rex for the information.

LC,

Sadly he was forced into retirement due to a stroke he never quite recovered from. He was not left paralyzed but was very weak from it and now lives in a retirement home for priests.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='20 April 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1271795851' post='2096920']
Ah, now see....... that would be the downside of it all. At my regular parish and my 'backup' parish, I have enormous issues with the choirs. At my regular one, it's a folksy, mostly incompetent karaoke band... and I try to say that with all the charity in the world. I just cannot stand it. The one at my backup parish is in some ways worse. They're very talented, but the can't seem to resist playing jazzy contemporary junk. I (literally) twitch every time the electric guitar does a little mini-solo.
So....... I'd be down with prayerful silence. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif[/img] Or prayerful screaming kids. Or prayerful nails on a chalkboard.
[/quote]

This is something that has confused me for many years about the Catholic church, so maybe some of you can help.

Why does it appear to be so often the norm that the music at Catholic Masses is "less than ideal?" (I'm trying to be diplomatic.)

I understand that part of the problem is that most Catholic churches offer many Masses on Saturdays/Sundays, as opposed to Protestants, who rarely offer more than 2 or 3 services on Sundays. Even if a Catholic church has a choir, it cannot be expected to sing at all the Masses. But, what about organ (or other types of classical) music?

It makes sense that, in a smaller, more rural community there may be a shortage of trained musicians. And, also, if there are multiple Masses offered, I can understand a congregation offering a "folk Mass" as one (or more) of the options, just as many churches offer Masses in Spanish or other languages.

But, there are a lot of truly talented musicians around, and most of them are underutilized.

If the Anglican congregations near me can have paid choir directors (and in one exceptional case, paid choristers), why couldn't a Catholic church pay a local organist to play at at least a few of the Saturday/Sunday Masses? Actually, the Anglican congregation with paid choristers has three choirs--an award-winning Men's/Boy's choir (those are the ones who are paid, and they practice virtually every day), a mixed Male/Female adult choir, and a Children's choir. The different choirs sing at different services (and you normally know ahead of time which choir is singing). Part of the reason this is possible is that I happen to be lucky and live near a university that offers an extensive music program, so many of the congregations in the area, of all denominations, use students/graduates of this program as their organists/choir directors/music directors. FYI--As far as I know, the paid choir at the one Anglican congregation pays for itself through the sale of CD's, and fees they receive for giving performances elsewhere (including at least one summer, where, for the month of August, they substituted for the official Men's/Boy's choir at St. George's Chapel at Windsor Castle in England).

I'm not suggesting that all Catholic churches go as far as this one Anglican congregation--it isn't even close to the norm among Anglicans, except perhaps at a cathedral. But, why can't a Catholic church have a trained organist play at at least some of the Masses?

I'm sure there is a reason for this. I just haven't figured it out. Thanks for the help.

[Nihil Obstat]

Lol, I wish i had time to write up a good response! Keep that reply bumped. If I don't get a chance to respond, somebody else (smarter about music than me) definitely will.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='20 April 2010 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1271799986' post='2096974']
This is something that has confused me for many years about the Catholic church, so maybe some of you can help.

Why does it appear to be so often the norm that the music at Catholic Masses is "less than ideal?" (I'm trying to be diplomatic.)

I understand that part of the problem is that most Catholic churches offer many Masses on Saturdays/Sundays, as opposed to Protestants, who rarely offer more than 2 or 3 services on Sundays. Even if a Catholic church has a choir, it cannot be expected to sing at all the Masses. But, what about organ (or other types of classical) music?

It makes sense that, in a smaller, more rural community there may be a shortage of trained musicians. And, also, if there are multiple Masses offered, I can understand a congregation offering a "folk Mass" as one (or more) of the options, just as many churches offer Masses in Spanish or other languages.

But, there are a lot of truly talented musicians around, and most of them are underutilized.

If the Anglican congregations near me can have paid choir directors (and in one exceptional case, paid choristers), why couldn't a Catholic church pay a local organist to play at at least a few of the Saturday/Sunday Masses? Actually, the Anglican congregation with paid choristers has three choirs--an award-winning Men's/Boy's choir (those are the ones who are paid, and they practice virtually every day), a mixed Male/Female adult choir, and a Children's choir. The different choirs sing at different services (and you normally know ahead of time which choir is singing). Part of the reason this is possible is that I happen to be lucky and live near a university that offers an extensive music program, so many of the congregations in the area, of all denominations, use students/graduates of this program as their organists/choir directors/music directors. FYI--As far as I know, the paid choir at the one Anglican congregation pays for itself through the sale of CD's, and fees they receive for giving performances elsewhere (including at least one summer, where, for the month of August, they substituted for the official Men's/Boy's choir at St. George's Chapel at Windsor Castle in England).

I'm not suggesting that all Catholic churches go as far as this one Anglican congregation--it isn't even close to the norm among Anglicans, except perhaps at a cathedral. But, why can't a Catholic church have a trained organist play at at least some of the Masses?

I'm sure there is a reason for this. I just haven't figured it out. Thanks for the help.
[/quote]

The state of the liturgical music in most parishes in the United States is pathetic. Treasure troves of great music have been written specifically for the Roman rite, from the Medieval (and possibly even older) chants of the [i]Graduale[/i] to the motets of Palestrina, from the Masses of Johann Sebastian Bach to those of Mozart. It is a tragedy that many of these works are performed more often at secular concerts than during the Catholic liturgy.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Resurrexi

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='20 April 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1271799986' post='2096974']

I'm not suggesting that all Catholic churches go as far as this one Anglican congregation--it isn't even close to the norm among Anglicans, except perhaps at a cathedral. But, why can't a Catholic church have a trained organist play at at least some of the Masses?

I'm sure there is a reason for this. I just haven't figured it out. Thanks for the help.
[/quote]


I can only speak from the experiences I've had at three parishes regarding "music ministry". At my current parish, we've been looking for a trained organist for the past year or so. (The previous one moved to a different state.) There are about two or three trained organists in the area; however, they are also employed by all the other area churches (Catholic and Protestant), too. So, they have a weekly rotation.

For the job description at my parish, they are basically looking for a trained organist AND a liturgist all in one. (This makes me wish I were a trained organist! ) However, practically speaking, the pay isn't all that great either. Very much on the level of a "gig" -- not something you could live off of unless you had many gigs a week. Like, every night.

Blessed be God, though, we seem to make do with what we have. I am grateful that we have an organist (with a REAL organ) and cantor every Sunday and that we sing traditional hymns. Occasionally there's even a bit of Mozart's "Ave Verum", or Vittoria's "Ave Maria"...

In another parish I was at in Brooklyn, they had a trained pianist/organist play for one of the Masses every Sunday. She's a full-time elementary/middle school music teacher, but was asked by the priest if she'd mind playing and choosing music for the Sunday English Mass. She received $100 per Mass. When I moved there, I was began playing with the organist, though I was not paid. There just wasn't enough funding.

At my first parish I ever went to, all the "music ministers" were volunteers -- like the Brooklyn parish, this one is also very poor. This included a pianist (they don't have an organ) and adult choir, and occasionally me (on flute) for solemnities. (Although I don't normally think of flute as a solemn instrument for Mass...)

I've always wanted to play Beethoven's [i]Missa Solemnis[/i] or Bach's [i]Mass in b minor[/i] for a real Mass with a real orchestra... that would be AWESOME. Unfortunately, I've never seen/heard those pieces used for Mass, but only for secular concerts. However, in the convent, we did sing some really wonderful liturgical music -- especially various Palestrina motets! (And for NO Masses, nonetheless!) The only other place I've heard such glorious liturgical music is at a couple of High EF Masses. Now [i]that[/i] is what I call music! Long live the schola!

Hmmmm.... I hope that helps, Ignatius.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='20 April 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1271797684' post='2096943']
You know, I'm not even sure it has to be homilies. These days many parishes have the idea that everyone comes on Sunday and the vast majority of them won't even look their way until next Sunday. This isn't really ideal. It wouldn't be easy, and it would take a long time to get people on board, but I think parishes should really work to get people coming by during the week. Even just for an hour or two for the priest to say something to them, for everyone to get together, for kids to meet other kids... I mean, why not? The local church should be a community as much as a neighbourhood. If I were a priest, that's what I'd work towards.
[/quote]

I realize that any idea that comes from a Protestant congregation is automatically heretical and against church teachings (I'm kidding--I think), but many Protestant denominations do this. That is, for example, the congregation might get together for dinner on Wednesdays, and then after dinner, the adults in the choir go to choir practice, and the rest of the congregation has some type of program. It might be a guest speaker, or the choir from a college affiliated with that denomination--something of general interest. And, the pastor of the congregation usually makes a few remarks or general announcements, etc.

Personally, I like the old Anglican tradition in England (which has probably mostly died out) that the congregation attends a Eucharistic service on Sunday morning, and attends Evensong (with choral/organ music) on Sunday evening. I wish this was the custom in the U.S. The "ultra-musical" Anglican congregation I mentioned in an earlier post offers a choral Evensong service, but only once a month. And, they are the only Anglican congregation near me that offers Evensong at all, at least that I'm aware of.

Edited April 20, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='20 April 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1271801978' post='2096993']
Personally, I like the old Anglican tradition in England (which has probably mostly died out) that the congregation attends a Eucharistic service on Sunday morning, and attends Evensong (with choral/organ music) on Sunday evening.
[/quote]

The Anglicans took that idea from the Catholics, just so you know.

In past ages, those who attended Holy Mass on Sunday morning would usually also attend the celebration of vespers on Sunday evening. In fact, at one time this was so common that some theologians even thought that one was obliged under pain of venial sin to attend Sunday vespers.

[Bennn]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='20 April 2010 - 09:32 PM' timestamp='1271791967' post='2096885']
Be careful that your "wonder" does not turn into judgment.
[/quote]


I suppose you're right and I got carried away. I tend to do that... Mea culpa.

Regardless of whether this practice will stay, or not. Patens and proper catechesis have to return. Though I would say that letting people kneel before the Blessed Eucharist is a form of catechesis in itself.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='20 April 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1271801978' post='2096993']
I realize that any idea that comes from a Protestant congregation is automatically heretical and against church teachings (I'm kidding--I think), but many Protestant denominations do this. That is, for example, the congregation might get together for dinner on Wednesdays, and then after dinner, the adults in the choir go to choir practice, and the rest of the congregation has some type of program. It might be a guest speaker, or the choir from a college affiliated with that denomination--something of general interest. And, the pastor of the congregation usually makes a few remarks or general announcements, etc.

Personally, I like the old Anglican tradition in England (which has probably mostly died out) that the congregation attends a Eucharistic service on Sunday morning, and attends Evensong (with choral/organ music) on Sunday evening. I wish this was the custom in the U.S. The "ultra-musical" Anglican congregation I mentioned in an earlier post offers a choral Evensong service, but only once a month. And, they are the only Anglican congregation near me that offers Evensong at all, at least that I'm aware of.
[/quote]
I think it would be ideal for the parish community to gather for extra-liturgical functions. Obviously it's not realistic to expect people to all congregate every other evening, but maybe once or twice during the week. Or better yet, have a variety of different evening functions that one could choose from. Maybe some musical, some theological, some related to social justice...