Limbo Is A Heretical View According To Epiphanius

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1271613340' post='2095643']
Are Marcionites and early church fathers truly referring to that same 'Hades' or 'limbo'?
[/quote]
I am not a Marcionite heretic so I cannot speak for them, but "Limbus Patrum" was the name given to Hades (and in particular to the Bosom of Abraham within Hades) by the Medieval Scholastic theologians.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1271613340' post='2095643']
I do not believe in 'limbo' whether Marcionites limbo or Catholic limbo. But I believe in this one place whether I was in the body or outside the body, I do not know only God knows from where as Apostle Paul called 'body of death' in Rom 7:24-25
24 [b]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord![/b].

Are Marcionites and early church fathers truly referring to that same 'Hades' or 'limbo'?
[/quote]

There you go again, this passage Rom 7:24-25 is referring to Paul's fleshly body that will die, because of the effects of original sin. And that it is only Christ that will save him.

Edited April 18, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[reyb]

[quote name='Formosus' date='18 April 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1271610194' post='2095635']
[b]Yes, the Marcionites were referring to Hades[/b], BUT they had a heretical notion of what it was. Namely that it was where the bad people of the OT resided (Cain, etc), but rather it is where the righteous (Abraham, Mosses, David, etc) resided until Christ came down and brought them up into heaven. Its that clear. I mean really do you think Christ went down into Hades to save Cain before rather then Abraham? I don't understand how anyone could hold that view, unless of course you were a Marcionite......
[/quote]


[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1271613340' post='2095643']
I do not believe in 'limbo' whether Marcionites limbo or Catholic limbo. But I believe in this one place whether I was in the body or outside the body, I do not know only God knows from where as Apostle Paul called 'body of death' in Rom 7:24-25
24 [b]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord![/b].

Are Marcionites and early church fathers truly referring to that same 'Hades' or 'limbo'?
[/quote]

Are Marcionites and early church fathers truly referring to that same 'Hades' or 'limbo' or not?

[reyb]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 April 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1271626790' post='2095771']
There you go again, this passage Rom 7:24-25 is referring to Paul's fleshly body that will die, because of the effects of original sin. And that it is only Christ that will save him.
[/quote]

...meaning, (to you) in this verse, Apostle Paul is saying about his 'physical body' that will be decayed (when he leave this word) and then he give thanks to God thru Jesus Christ because he 'saw' that one day this body will be given back to him by God at the resurrection day and it will be forever. Do I get what you are trying to say?

[Formosus]

What is there not to get when I said "Yes the Macrionites were referring to Hades". They were wrong on what happened when Christ descended into Hades and they were wrong on who was in Hades, but he heretical Macrionites and the Early Church fathers are both referring to Hades as a place all the dead ,before Christ, went after they died. Christ died, and descended into Hades to save the righteous souls who lived before Christ's time. The difference between the marcrionites and the Catholics is the Macrionites were gnostics and so they thought the righteous in Hades were people like Cain etc who rejected the God of the OT .(because the God of the OT in gnostic theology is actually Satan, so by rejecting Satan and his material creations in the OT, Cain was actually worshiping the invisible gnostic God who frees us from corporeal reality) The Catholic Church and the Early Church rejected this gnostic view. The God of the OT is identical to the God of the NT, so the righteous of the OT were those who did God's will. Namely Abraham, Issac, David, etc.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Formosus

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1271632393' post='2095818']
...meaning, (to you) in this verse, Apostle Paul is saying about his 'physical body' that will be decayed (when he leave this word) and then he give thanks to God thru Jesus Christ because he 'saw' that one day this body will be given back to him by God at the resurrection day and it will be forever. Do I get what you are trying to say?
[/quote]

"To you" and "to I" mean little it is actually what is and what is not. Saint Paul is speaking of his physical body which will die, which will be resurrected by Christ, and his soul will be saved by Christ.

[reyb]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 April 2010 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1271635570' post='2095839']
"To you" and "to I" mean little it is actually what is and what is not. [i][b]Saint Paul is speaking of his physical body which will die, which will be resurrected by Christ, and his soul will be saved by Christ.[/b][/i]
[/quote]

Rom 7:24-25
24 [b]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!
[/b]

That is precisely what I am talking about. You see the above verse (Romans 7:24-25) the way you explain it - that '[i]Saint Paul is speaking of his physical body which will die, which will be resurrected by Christ, and his soul will be saved by Christ.'[/i] And I do not think it is different from what I previously posted..

[quote]
meaning, (to you) in this verse, Apostle Paul is saying about his 'physical body' that will be decayed (when he leave this word) and then he give thanks to God thru Jesus Christ because he 'saw' that one day this body will be given back to him by God at the resurrection day and it will be forever. Do I get what you are trying to say?
[/quote]

But he is not saying the way you understood it that is, if I am the one who will read it. Let us set aside this verse for a while (and we will discuss it later) because we are still discussing about 'limbo' or 'hades'.

Edited April 19, 2010 by reyb

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1271642014' post='2095880']
Rom 7:24-25
24 [b]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!
[/b]

That is precisely what I am talking about. You see the above verse (Romans 7:24-25) the way you explain it - that '[i]Saint Paul is speaking of his physical body which will die, which will be resurrected by Christ, and his soul will be saved by Christ.'[/i] And I do not think it is different from what I previously posted..



But he is not saying the way you understood it that is, if I am the one who will read it. Let us set aside this verse for a while (and we will discuss it later) because we are still discussing about 'limbo' or 'hades'.
[/quote]

But you brought those verses into this discussion. And the two different verses have different subject matter they cannot be married as you are vainly attempting to do.

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id151.html"]Romans 7.[/url]

Notes & Commentary:

I cry out, who shall deliver me from the body of this death, from this mortal body with its sinful lusts, which if consented to would bring death to the soul? Nothing but the grace of Jesus Christ can secure me from such temptations, and by freeing me from this body, can make me perfectly happy; which cannot be hoped for in this life. But I have still this greatest of consolations, that I myself, with my mind and will, still serve God, and remain firm in obedience to his laws; but with the flesh, or in the flesh, I am subject to the law of sin, i.e. of sinful inclinations. --- We must avoid here two heretical errors; that of those late pretended reformers, who denying man's free will, hold the commandments of God impossible, even to a just man. See also the first heretical proposition of Jansenius. Next we must detest the late abominable error of those called Quietists, who blushed not to say that a man might yield and abandon himself to the most shameful disorders of the flesh, pretending that it was not they themselves, but sin and the devil that caused these abominations in their flesh. St. Augustine foresaw this frivolous excuse: (lib. i. de. nup. and Concup. chap. xxviii.) "That man (saith he) is in a grievous mistake, who, consenting to the concupiscence of the flesh, and to do what the flesh prompts him to, thinks he can still say: It is not I that do that," &c. (Witham)

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id190.html"]2 Corinthians 12.[/url]

Notes & Commentary:

Ver. 1. If I must glory. St. Paul in the whole of this discourse shews the repugnance he had of speaking in his own praise, and that if he did it, it was only through constraint, and for the advantage of the Corinthians; as also to defend himself from his calumniators. (Calmet)

Ver. 2. I know a man, &c. He speaks of himself, as it were of a third person. --- Whether in the body, I know not. If St. Paul himself knew not, how can we pretend to decide, whether his soul was for some moments separated from his body, or in what manner he saw God. (Witham) --- It appears that this took place about the period when the Holy Ghost commanded that he should be separated for the work whereunto he was called. (Acts xiii. 2.)

Ver. 4. Caught up into paradise. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are of opinion that this third heaven and paradise are the same place, and designate the abode of the blessed. In order to understand the language of the apostle, we must observe that the Hebrews distinguished three different heavens. The first comprised the air, the clouds, &c. as far as the fixed stars. The second included all the fixed stars; and the third was the abode of Angels, in which God himself discovered his infinite glory, &c. The first is called in Scripture simply the heavens, the second the firmament, and the third the heaven of heavens. (Calmet)...

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='17 April 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1271535856' post='2095209']
Or maybe you just don't enjoy being corrected. [/quote]

I do, actually, when it involves learning something new and doesn't come with an attitude. I'll take care of the learning myself and maybe you'll take care of the rest.

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 April 2010 - 03:01 PM' timestamp='1271617314' post='2095680']
I am not a Marcionite heretic so I cannot speak for them, but "Limbus Patrum" was the name given to Hades (and in particular to the Bosom of Abraham within Hades) by the Medieval Scholastic theologians.
[/quote]


[quote name='Formosus' date='18 April 2010 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1271632552' post='2095822']
What is there not to get when I said "Yes the Macrionites were referring to Hades". They were wrong on what happened when Christ descended into Hades and they were wrong on who was in Hades, but he heretical Macrionites and the Early Church fathers are both referring to Hades as a place all the dead ,before Christ, went after they died. Christ died, and descended into Hades to save the righteous souls who lived before Christ's time. The difference between the marcrionites and the Catholics is the Macrionites were gnostics and so they thought the righteous in Hades were people like Cain etc who rejected the God of the OT .(because the God of the OT in gnostic theology is actually Satan, so by rejecting Satan and his material creations in the OT, Cain was actually worshiping the invisible gnostic God who frees us from corporeal reality) The Catholic Church and the Early Church rejected this gnostic view. The God of the OT is identical to the God of the NT, so the righteous of the OT were those who did God's will. Namely Abraham, Issac, David, etc.
[/quote]

It is only proper to say, ‘Limbo is a heretical view’ because Marcionites are heretics who believe in this idea but, something is not right on how you see them. It seems in Catholics’ view, Marcionites are not outright heretics because, if we will limit our discussion on Limbo, they are not heretics - just like what it was posted ‘Epiphanius did not condemned the idea about ‘Limbo’ or ‘Hades’ and Catholics and Marcionites are referring to that same place - but, if we will include persons took by Christ in that place, they become heretics in the eyes of Catholics.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' date='21 April 2010 - 05:12 AM' timestamp='1271841165' post='2097247']
It is only proper to say, ‘Limbo is a heretical view’ because Marcionites are heretics who believe in this idea but, something is not right on how you see them. It seems in Catholics’ view, Marcionites are not outright heretics because, if we will limit our discussion on Limbo, they are not heretics - just like what it was posted ‘Epiphanius did not condemned the idea about ‘Limbo’ or ‘Hades’ and Catholics and Marcionites are referring to that same place - but, if we will include persons took by Christ in that place, they become heretics in the eyes of Catholics.
[/quote]

It is not proper to say Limbus Patrum is a heretical view. It is grossly improper. Marcionites were outright heretics. Yes they believed in the existance of Limbus Patrum but perverted it, twisted it into something it was not.

Why don't we move on and you can bring up your next sourced objection to Limbus Patrum.

Edited April 21, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[HisChildForever]

Guys, I would just give up.

[reyb]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='21 April 2010 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1271890094' post='2097554']
It is not proper to say Limbus Patrum is a heretical view. It is grossly improper. Marcionites were outright heretics. Yes they believed in the existance of Limbus Patrum but perverted it, twisted it into something it was not.

Why don't we move on and you can bring up your next sourced objection to Limbus Patrum.
[/quote]

Okay.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='21 April 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1271890405' post='2097559']
Guys, I would just give up.
[/quote]

I'm surprised they're still humoring reyb after all this time.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='21 April 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1271904174' post='2097707']
I'm surprised they're still humoring reyb after all this time.
[/quote]

So am I...