Limbo Is A Heretical View According To Epiphanius

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' date='17 April 2010 - 07:29 AM' timestamp='1271510984' post='2095076']
Now, is ‘Limbo of the Fathers’ different from ‘Limbo of Cain’ in terms of an idea that Christ went to that place to save sinners?
[/quote]
Did you even read the actual quotation from the [i][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=104494&view=findpost&p=2094932"]Panarion[/url][/i]?

Once again you have shown how befuddled and confused you are, because it was Marcion - not the Catholic Church - who proposed the spurious notion that Cain, Dathan, and the others mentioned by you, were taken out of Hades. Marcion hated the "God of the Jews," i.e., the God of the Old Testament, which is a theological position condemned by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church - in opposition to the Marcionites - has always asserted the unity of the God of the two testaments. Now, the full text from the [i]Panarion[/i] shows this to be the case, but sadly you have ignored the full quotation, while continuing on with your strange notion that the Catholic Church accepted the Marcionite propositions that St. Epiphanios had condemned in the [i]Panarion[/i].

So let me clarify matters for you: St. Ephiphanios' condemnation of Marcion has nothing to do with a rejection of Hades, but concerns only Marcion's rejection of the God of the Old Testament, and his belief that Christ went to Hades in order to "save Cain, Korah, Dathan, Abiram, Esau, and all the gentiles who had not known the God of the Jews"; while leaving "Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon there [i.e., in Hades] because, as [Marcion] says, they recognized the God of the Jews, the maker and creator, and have done what is congenial to Him, and did not devote themselves to the invisible God," i.e., the gnostic god of Marcion.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Apotheoun

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='17 April 2010 - 11:56 AM' timestamp='1271519796' post='2095115']
Did you even read the actual quotation from the [i][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=104494&view=findpost&p=2094932"]Panarion[/url][/i]?

Once again you have shown how befuddled and confused you are, because it was Marcion - not the Catholic Church - who proposed the spurious notion that Cain, Dathan, and the others mentioned by you, were taken out of Hades. Marcion hated the "God of the Jews," i.e., the God of the Old Testament, which is a theological position condemned by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church - in opposition to the Marcionites - has always asserted the unity of the God of the two testaments. Now, the full text from the [i]Panarion[/i] shows this to be the case, but sadly you have ignored the full quotation, while continuing on with your strange notion that the Catholic Church accepted the Marcionite propositions that St. Epiphanios had condemned in the [i]Panarion[/i].

So let me clarify matters for you: St. Ephiphanios' condemnation of Marcion has nothing to do with a rejection of Hades, but concerns only Marcion's rejection of the God of the Old Testament, and his belief that Christ went to Hades in order to "save Cain, Korah, Dathan, Abiram, Esau, and all the gentiles who had not known the God of the Jews"; while leaving "Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon there [i.e., in Hades] because, as [Marcion] says, they recognized the God of the Jews, the maker and creator, and have done what is congenial to Him, and did not devote themselves to the invisible God," i.e., the gnostic god of Marcion.
[/quote]

That is precisely 'what' I am asking. Is the 'limbo of the fathers' different from the 'limbo of Cain' in terms of an idea that Christ went to that place to save sinners? Or they (Catholics and Marcionites) are referring to that same place (limbo of non-infant where Christ went) but Catholics called Marcionites heretics because of different 'persons' saved by Christ in that same place.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' date='17 April 2010 - 10:47 AM' timestamp='1271522879' post='2095124']
That is precisely 'what' I am asking. Is the 'limbo of the fathers' different from the 'limbo of Cain' in terms of an idea that Christ went to that place to save sinners? Or they (Catholics and Marcionites) are referring to that same place (limbo of non-infant where Christ went) but Catholics called Marcionites heretics because of different 'persons' saved by Christ in that same place.
[/quote]
Your question has already been answered several times. There is no such thing as a "Limbo of Cain."

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='16 April 2010 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1271463048' post='2094948']
No, one no was not sufficient.

A no is needed for each limbo, for there have been two limbos, that of the fathers and that of the infants.
[/quote]

I think you just enjoy correcting people a bit too much.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='17 April 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1271475880' post='2095006']
To help cease confusion if you are going to refer to Limbo of the Infants, call it Limbo of the Infants. Limbo of the Fathers has never been thrown out, and never shall be it is part of Apostolic tradition, and official teaching of the Church.
[/quote]

I've only heard of Limbo of the Infants. I'll have to read up on it at some point.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='17 April 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1271534877' post='2095202']
I think you just enjoy correcting people a bit too much. [/quote]

Or maybe you just don't enjoy being corrected.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='17 April 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1271534877' post='2095202']
I've only heard of Limbo of the Infants. I'll have to read up on it at some point.
[/quote]

Check out the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] and the [i]Catechism of the Council of Trent[/i] under the article "He descended into hell".

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='17 April 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1271524769' post='2095133']
Your question has already been answered several times. There is no such thing as a "Limbo of Cain."
[/quote]

When Marcionites believe in limbo from where Christ went to save Cain et al., such limbo is not existing but when your early church fathers believe in limbo from where Christ went to save ‘prophets’ such limbo is existing. Of course, your answer is :Because there is no ‘limbo of Cain’ while there is ‘limbo of the fathers’. How do you know that there is no ‘limbo of Cain’? May I know your reason?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1271594526' post='2095579']
When Marcionites believe in limbo from where Christ went to save Cain et al., such limbo is not existing but when your early church fathers believe in limbo from where Christ went to save ‘prophets’ such limbo is existing. Of course, your answer is :Because there is no ‘limbo of Cain’ while there is ‘limbo of the fathers’. How do you know that there is no ‘limbo of Cain’? May I know your reason?
[/quote]
Honestly, you are the most confused person I have ever come across.

HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE QUOTATION FROM ST. EPIPHANIOS?

Your point in starting this thread was founded on a misreading of St. Epiphanios' Panarion, which I quoted in order to show that you are off the mark on that issue, but alas you have failed to ever respond to that quotation.

Now, as far as Hades, which is the word that St. Epiphanios used, is concerned, Christ descended into Hades, i.e., the abode of the dead, and released the righteous individuals of the Old Covenant who were kept there until Christ Himself had risen from the dead. Christ speaks about this place, i.e., Hades (also called "the Bosom of Abraham" by our Lord), in several places in the Gospels (e.g., Matthew 16:18, Luke 16:19-31, see also Acts 2:27 and 2:31, Revelation 1:18, etc.), and portrays it simply as the resting place of the dead - righteous and unrighteous - prior to the resurrection. Christ - as the Gospel of Matthew indicates - frees the righteous dead and raises them to new life (see Matthew 27:51-53) after His own resurrection.

How do I know that this is true? I know it is true because the Church founded by Christ teaches this as a truth of faith. Why do you reject this idea? Because you follow a false god, which in many ways mirrors the gnostic god of Marcion.

I will keep you in my prayers, and will ask the Lord to enlighten your mind to the true faith, so that you may overcome your obstinate attachment to theological heresy.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Apotheoun

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 April 2010 - 10:47 AM' timestamp='1271602046' post='2095614']
Honestly, you are the most confused person I have ever come across.

HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE QUOTATION FROM ST. EPIPHANIOS?

Your point in starting this thread was founded on a misreading of St. Epiphanios' Panarion, which I quoted in order to show that you are off the mark on that issue, but alas you have failed to ever respond to that quotation.

Now, as far as Hades, which is the word that St. Epiphanios used, is concerned, Christ descended into Hades, i.e., the abode of the dead, and released the righteous individuals who had lived under the Old Covenant and were kept there until Christ had risen from the dead. Christ speaks about this place, i.e., Hades (also called "the Bosom of Abraham" by our Lord), in several places in the Gospels (e.g., Matthew 16:18, Luke 16:19-31, see also Acts 2:27 and 2:31, Revelation 1:18, etc.), and portrays it simply as the resting place of the dead - righteous and unrighteous - prior to the resurrection. Christ - as the Gospel of Matthew indicates - frees the righteous dead and raises them to new life (see Matthew 27:51-53) after His own resurrection.

How do I know that this is true? I know it is true because the Church founded by Christ teaches this as a truth of faith. Why do you reject this idea? Because you follow a false god, which in many ways mirrors the gnostic god of Marcion.

I will keep you in my prayers, and will ask the Lord to enlighten your mind to the true faith, so that you may overcome your obstinate attachment to theological heresy.
[/quote]

We are not yet discussing the 'limbo of the fathers'. What I am asking is, how do you know that there is no 'limbo of Cain et al'. Again, how do you know that there is no 'limbo of Cain'?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1271602999' post='2095616']
We are not yet discussing the 'limbo of the fathers'. What I am asking is, how do you know that there is no 'limbo of Cain et al'. Again, how do you know that there is no 'limbo of Cain'?
[/quote]
St. Epiphanios never used that name, which is peculiar to the Latin Church. The Limbo of the Fathers is - to put it simply - Hades.

Now, I expect you in your next post to concede that your references to St. Epiphanios were made out of ignorance of what he actually said. Epiphanios does not support your position. Here endeth the lesson.

[Apotheoun]

Reyb entitled this thread, "Limbo Is A Heretical View According To Epiphanius," and I have shown - by giving the quotation from the [i]Panarion[/i] to which he referred in his first post - that St. Epiphanios speaks of Hades in the text in question, and that he does not condemn belief in Hades at all, but only condemns Marcion's view that the God of the Old Testament is not the true God, and that Christ leaves the righteous dead (i.e., the Patriarchs and Prophets) in Hades while releasing those who failed to serve - in Marcion's words - the "God of the Jews."

Edited April 18, 2010 by Apotheoun

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 April 2010 - 11:14 AM' timestamp='1271603661' post='2095618']
Reyb entitled this thread, "Limbo Is A Heretical View According To Epiphanius," and I have shown - by giving the quotation from the [i]Panarion[/i] to which he referred in his first post - that St. Epiphanios speaks of Hades in the text in question, and that he does not condemn belief in Hades at all, but only condemns Marcion's view that the God of the Old Testament is not the true God, and that Christ leaves the righteous dead (i.e., the Patriarchs and Prophets) in Hades while releasing those who failed to serve - in Marcion's words - the "God of the Jews."
[/quote]

[b]Marcionites - Heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 [/b]at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire
.............
But even in hell Christ overcame the Demiurge by preaching to the spirits in Limbo, and by HisResurrection He founded the true Kingdom of the Good God. [b]Epiphanius (Haer., xlii, 4) says that Marcionites believed that in Limbo Christ brought salvation to Cain, Core, Dathan and Abiron, Esau, and the Gentiles, but left in damnation all Old Testamentsaints.[/b] This may have been held by some Marcionites in the fourth century, but it was not the teaching of Marcion himself, who had no Antinomian tendencies

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm)

Thus, you can see where I got this title.

Now, in your previous post you said '[i]that St. Epiphanios speaks of Hades in the text in question, and that he does not condemn belief in Hades at all, but only condemns Marcion's view that the God of the Old Testament is not the true God, and that Christ leaves the righteous dead (i.e., the Patriarchs and Prophets) in Hades[/i]'

Thus in my previous post I am asking,

[quote]
..... Is the 'limbo of the fathers' different from the 'limbo of Cain' in terms of an idea that Christ went to that place to save sinners? Or they (Catholics and Marcionites) are referring to that same place (limbo of non-infant where Christ went) but Catholics called Marcionites heretics because of different 'persons' saved by Christ in that same place.
[/quote]

Here you called that place 'Hades' or 'limbo'. Now, do Catholics and Marcionites referring to that same place called 'hades' or 'limbo' or not?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1271605259' post='2095623']
[b]Marcionites - Heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 [/b]at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire
.............
But even in hell Christ overcame the Demiurge by preaching to the spirits in Limbo, and by HisResurrection He founded the true Kingdom of the Good God. [b]Epiphanius (Haer., xlii, 4) says that Marcionites believed that in Limbo Christ brought salvation to Cain, Core, Dathan and Abiron, Esau, and the Gentiles, but left in damnation all Old Testamentsaints.[/b] This may have been held by some Marcionites in the fourth century, but it was not the teaching of Marcion himself, who had no Antinomian tendencies

(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm)[/quote]
Reyb do you know the difference between a primary and a secondary source? I quoted a primary source, i.e., the actual text of St. Epiphanios, while you continue to quote the old Catholic Encyclopedia, which is not quoting St. Epiphanios, but is simply referencing him for its own purposes, and is doing so rather poorly - in my opinion.

If you look at the Greek text of St. Epiphanios' [i]Panarion[/i] he uses the word Hades when talking about Christ's descent to the dead after His crucifixion, and never uses the word Gehenna (i.e., hell in English).

Get your facts straight if you want to debate this issue with me.

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1271605259' post='2095623']
Thus, you can see where I got this title. [/quote]
My advice to you is that you should be more careful when quoting secondary sources. As I tell my students . . . ALWAYS VERIFY WHAT IS SAID IN A SECONDARY SOURCE BY RECOURSE TO THE PRIMARY TEXT! ALWAYS!

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1271605259' post='2095623']
Now, in your previous post you said '[i]that St. Epiphanios speaks of Hades in the text in question, and that he does not condemn belief in Hades at all, but only condemns Marcion's view that the God of the Old Testament is not the true God, and that Christ leaves the righteous dead (i.e., the Patriarchs and Prophets) in Hades[/i]'

Thus in my previous post I am asking,
[quote]..... Is the 'limbo of the fathers' different from the 'limbo of Cain' in terms of an idea that Christ went to that place to save sinners? Or they (Catholics and Marcionites) are referring to that same place (limbo of non-infant where Christ went) but Catholics called Marcionites heretics because of different 'persons' saved by Christ in that same place.[/quote][/quote]
I am not going to debate you on the issue of the "limbo of Cain," because it is a construct of your own mind. There is no reference in any ancient text that I am aware of to a "limbo of Cain." If you know of any document that refers to this creation of your own thoughts, by all means quote the text, but be sure to supply the information necessary so that I can confirm the quotation by recourse to the primary source document.

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1271605259' post='2095623']
Here you called that place 'Hades' or 'limbo'. Now, do Catholics and Marcionites referring to that same place called 'hades' or 'limbo' or not?[/quote]
Hades is a biblical term used throughout the New Testament by Christ the Lord Himself so I will never deny the teaching on Hades. Now as far as "Limbus Patrum" is concerned, it is simply a name used for Hades by the Latin Church, which is no skin off my nose. I am not a Latin Catholic and so I normally use Greek (or Slavonic) terms in theological discourse.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Formosus]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 April 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1271605259' post='2095623']


Here you called that place 'Hades' or 'limbo'. Now, do Catholics and Marcionites referring to that same place called 'hades' or 'limbo' or not?
[/quote]

Yes, the Marcionites were referring to Hades, BUT they had a heretical notion of what it was. Namely that it was where the bad people of the OT resided (Cain, etc), but rather it is where the righteous (Abraham, Mosses, David, etc) resided until Christ came down and brought them up into heaven. Its that clear. I mean really do you think Christ went down into Hades to save Cain before rather then Abraham? I don't understand how anyone could hold that view, unless of course you were a Marcionite......

[mortify]

What a sad attempt to attack the Catholic Church. It reveals something about the author as well.

[reyb]

[quote name='Formosus' date='18 April 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1271610194' post='2095635']
Yes, the Marcionites were referring to Hades, BUT they had a heretical notion of what it was. Namely that it was where the bad people of the OT resided (Cain, etc), but rather it is where the righteous (Abraham, Mosses, David, etc) resided until Christ came down and brought them up into heaven. Its that clear. I mean really do you think Christ went down into Hades to save Cain before rather then Abraham? I don't understand how anyone could hold that view, unless of course you were a Marcionite......
[/quote]

I do not believe in 'limbo' whether Marcionites limbo or Catholic limbo. But I believe in this one place whether I was in the body or outside the body, I do not know only God knows from where as Apostle Paul called 'body of death' in Rom 7:24-25
24 [b]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord![/b].

Are Marcionites and early church fathers truly referring to that same 'Hades' or 'limbo'?

Edited April 18, 2010 by reyb