reyb Posted April 16, 2010 Author Share Posted April 16, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 April 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1271371421' post='2094267'] This is another confused and confusing thread, because the original poster has been imprecise in the first post. [/quote] About what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 16, 2010 Share Posted April 16, 2010 [quote name='reyb' date='15 April 2010 - 06:00 PM' timestamp='1271376052' post='2094345'] About what? [/quote] First, you confused Limbus Patrum with Limbus Puerorum, and then you tried to apply a very specifically worded condemnation of the Marcionites by Epiphanios as a general condemnation of the doctrine of Limbus Patrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 16, 2010 Author Share Posted April 16, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 April 2010 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1271376245' post='2094347'] First, you confused Limbus Patrum with Limbus Puerorum, and then you tried to apply a very specifically worded condemnation of the Marcionites by Epiphanios as a general condemnation of the doctrine of Limbus Patrum. [/quote] Just like I said, let us set aside 'Limbo of infants' for a while and discuss 'limbo of non-infants'. (it seems 'Limbo of Fathers' is not a heretical view but 'Limbo of Cain, Core, Dathan and Abiron, Esau, and the Gentiles' is a heresy) So, let us clear this up. Edited April 16, 2010 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 16, 2010 Share Posted April 16, 2010 [quote name='reyb' date='15 April 2010 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1271376885' post='2094356'] Just like I said, let us set aside 'Limbo of infants' for a while and discuss 'limbo of non-infants'. (it seems 'Limbo of Fathers' is not a heretical view but 'Limbo of Cain, Core, Dathan and Abiron, Esau, and the Gentiles' is a heresy) So, let us clear this up. [/quote] The limbo of the Fathers was the place of repose where the righteous dead of the Old Covenant awaited their resurrection to new life, which could only take place after Christ Himself rose from the dead, and thus opening the tombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 16, 2010 Author Share Posted April 16, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 April 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1271377198' post='2094361'] The limbo of the Fathers was the place of repose where the righteous dead of the Old Covenant awaited their resurrection to new life, which could only take place after Christ Himself rose from the dead, and thus opening the tombs. [/quote] Is this 'limbo of the fathers' an official Catholic dogma or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 16, 2010 Share Posted April 16, 2010 [quote name='reyb' date='16 April 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1271458492' post='2094924'] Is this 'limbo of the fathers' an official Catholic dogma or not? [/quote] It is a part of tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted April 16, 2010 Share Posted April 16, 2010 Wasn't the entire concept of limbo eliminated as a valid theological theory a few years back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 16, 2010 Share Posted April 16, 2010 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='16 April 2010 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1271458933' post='2094927'] Wasn't the entire concept of limbo eliminated as a valid theological theory a few years back? [/quote] No. It is a divinely revealed dogma that Christ descended into the limbo of the fathers, as taught by the Apostles' Creed, "Descendit ad inferos." No. The International Theological Commission's document on infants' limbo had absolutely no teaching authority as the International Theological Commission has absolutely no teaching authority. However, even if it did have the authority to teach, if you had read the document yourself, you would have seen that, for the writers of the document, infants' limbo remains a theological possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 16, 2010 Share Posted April 16, 2010 [i]I have decided to post the pertinent section of St. Epiphanios' writing entitled "Panarion" so that people can see more clearly that his condemnation of Marcion is not a condemnation of the idea that there is a "Limbo," or to be more precise "Hades," which is the word that actually appears in the text in question, but that he is instead condemning Marcion's dualist rejection of the God revealed in the Old Testament in favor of a gnostic god, who made only the spiritual world and not the physical world.[/i] [size="3"]But this is not all. [Marcion] rejects both the Law and all the prophets, and says that the prophets have prophesied by the inspiration of the archon who made the world. And he says that Christ has descended from on high, from the invisible Father who cannot be named, for the salvation of souls and the confusion of the God of the Jews, the Law, and the prophets, and anything of the kind. The Lord has gone down even to Hades to save Cain, Korah, Dathan, Abiram, Esau, and all the gentiles who had not known the God of the Jews. But he has left Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon there because, as he says, they recognized the God of the Jews, the maker and creator, and have done what is congenial to Him, and did not devote themselves to the invisible God. [[i]Panarion[/i], Section III, chapter 42, no. 4:1-5][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted April 16, 2010 Share Posted April 16, 2010 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='16 April 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1271459566' post='2094930'] No. It is a divinely revealed dogma that Christ descended into the limbo of the fathers, as taught by the Apostles' Creed, "Descendit ad inferos." No. The International Theological Commission's document on infants' limbo had absolutely no teaching authority as the International Theological Commission has absolutely no teaching authority. However, even if it did have the authority to teach, if you had read the document yourself, you would have seen that, for the writers of the document, infants' limbo remains a theological possibility. [/quote] One "no" is sufficient I thought Jesus descended into Hades. I've never heard of the International Theological Commission (sounds like an Obama committee) but I do know the Apostle's Creed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='16 April 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1271461378' post='2094944'] One "no" is sufficient I thought Jesus descended into Hades. I've never heard of the International Theological Commission (sounds like an Obama committee) but I do know the Apostle's Creed. [/quote] No, one no was not sufficient. A no is needed for each limbo, for there have been two limbos, that of the fathers and that of the infants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='16 April 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1271458933' post='2094927'] Wasn't the entire concept of limbo eliminated as a valid theological theory a few years back? [/quote] To help cease confusion if you are going to refer to Limbo of the Infants, call it Limbo of the Infants. Limbo of the Fathers has never been thrown out, and never shall be it is part of Apostolic tradition, and official teaching of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 17, 2010 Author Share Posted April 17, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='16 April 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1271475880' post='2095006'] To help cease confusion if you are going to refer to Limbo of the Infants, call it Limbo of the Infants. Limbo of the Fathers has never been thrown out, and never shall be it is part of Apostolic tradition, and official teaching of the Church. [/quote] Can we now consider, limbo of the fathers an 'official' teaching of the Roman Catholic Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted April 17, 2010 Share Posted April 17, 2010 (edited) [quote name='reyb' date='17 April 2010 - 03:53 AM' timestamp='1271490820' post='2095064'] Can we now consider, limbo of the fathers an 'official' teaching of the Roman Catholic Church? [/quote] We have always believed Limbus patrum, or Limbo of the Fathers is a truth of Holy Mother Church. Edited April 17, 2010 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 17, 2010 Author Share Posted April 17, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='17 April 2010 - 03:56 AM' timestamp='1271491008' post='2095065'] We have always believed Limbus patrum, or Limbo of the Fathers is a truth of Holy Mother Church. [/quote] Now, is ‘Limbo of the Fathers’ different from ‘Limbo of Cain’ in terms of an idea that Christ went to that place to save sinners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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