Atheists Saying Prayer Is Stupid

[Aloysius]

especially since there are so many out there praying for the whole world, and praying for you and your loved ones.

when you say we don't notice any difference between prayer and random events, you cite nothing prove this, you assert it without proof. you may have criticisms for the few studies that exist, but those studies show a difference between prayer and random events. I disagree that we would necessarily see a trend in any given sample size, but to assert without proof that there is no trend is simply false.

there are specific instances of miracles obtained by prayer which have been studied by the Vatican with the inclusion of panels of doctors that state there is no medical explanation, a certain number of such events that have happened at Lourdes as well as quite a lot that have established miracles for the cause of a saint, so there is that. my denial that a sample size can prove prayer does not mean that there are never specific instances that can be established beyond some level of reasonable doubt to have been the result of prayer.

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1319144931' post='2324354']
when you say we don't notice any difference between prayer and random events, you cite nothing prove this, you assert it without proof.
[/quote]
Initially I thought proof would be a bit premature as I was trying to establish what people believed with regards to prayer.
I didn't think that there have been conclusive studies done proving the advantage of pray as I would have thought that it would then be common knowledge. But once everyone on this thread started agreeing that there would be no statistical difference then it made citing studies somewhat redundant. What would be the point searching for a study to prove what everyone already agrees to?


[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1319144931' post='2324354']
you may have criticisms for the few studies that exist, but those studies show a difference between prayer and random events.
[/quote]
I'm baffled by your comments here. On the one hand you tell me there would be no statistical difference, on the other hand you tell me that these referenced studies show that there is a difference.
My criticisms explain that I don't agree that there is a conclusive difference and that I don't agree that the difference between the two groups in the study has been proven to be attributed to the prayer factor. This study is inconclusive.

[Aloysius]

I wouldn't expect a consistent repeatable statistical difference. I'd expect there to sometimes show a benefit, sometimes show no benefit, sometimes maybe even show people prayed for being less likely to get better; every time depending upon the particular circumstances of those being prayed for and those doing the praying.

HOWEVER, I am entirely capable of discussing things assuming your premises. I am criticizing you for not establishing your premise. You claim that there is no statistical benefit to prayer: I say, show me the proof. While you may have some criticisms for the studies that show prayer as effective, you have not shown any counter-studies. I cited one counter-study and criticized it for obviously testing prayer as if prayer were a magic formula rather than a supplication (pre-written prayers only allowed, to isolate whether a specific wording could "work"). other than that, the studies showed trends towards prayer being effective, even if you dispute the sample size.

I don't think it's fair to say prayed-for people respond exactly as one would expect random chance to respond. However, I do not believe larger sample sizes will necessarily demonstrate any trend; as we are dealing with a personal will and hundreds and thousands and millions of different circumstances in each case we would potentially examine as part of a study, any trend would be different every time. You could have a ten year study done one decade and find that prayer was dramatically trending towards healing, and a ten year study in a different decade that found prayer supposedly "behaving similar to random chance", and a ten year study in another decade showing people that were prayed for actually being less likely to get better. all because it's personal supplication to a personal will. prayer is not a treatment, it is a request to God, which should always end "Thy will be done"