Atheists Saying Prayer Is Stupid

[stevil]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1271256382' post='2093191']
The thing they refuse to recognize is that they're just begging the question with these "experiments". Their belief system is founded on the idea that there is nothing more than what can be quantified and observed by humans.
[/quote]
Actually, an Atheist does not automatically have a belief system. we don't go to Atheist church or Atheist school. We don't have a scripture that tells us what to believe.

I would change your last sentence "Their belief system is founded on the idea that there is nothing more than what can be quantified and observed by humans" to something more honest.
"Their stance is founded on the idea that we cannot have knowledge of what cannot be quantified and observed by humans".
This certainly isn't to say that Atheists believe that if we haven't observed it yet then it cannot exist. In fact, science has postulated that 99% of the energy and matter of our Universe is Dark Energy and Dark Matter and that we have never observed these things thus we know almost nothing about 99% of existence.

So with regards to prayer, humans have not been able to statistically measure a positive outcome of prayer. This certainly puts boundaries onto what prayers are granted. Those that can be measure are not granted. This means that prayer for sunny wedding days, prayers for healthy bodies, cures from sickness, financial or material benefits, sporting outcomes, exam outcomes, these sort of prayers aren't measurably answered.

This is not to say that prayer is never answered, but an analytical Atheist would no doubt look to gain an understanding on what prayer is and which prayers can be answered as to which prayers cannot be answered.

Please don't look at Atheists as people that are hell bent on proving Religion is baloney. Atheists are searching for physical, measurable evidence as this is a way to gain feedback substantiating theories put forth.

The conundrum is this:
Without feedback an Atheist cannot believe a theory, however with feedback, belief is no longer required.

Edited October 8, 2011 by stevil

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1318071067' post='2317862']
Actually, an Atheist does not automatically have a belief system. we don't go to Atheist church or Atheist school. We don't have a scripture that tells us what to believe.

I would change your last sentence "Their belief system is founded on the idea that there is nothing more than what can be quantified and observed by humans" to something more honest.
"Their stance is founded on the idea that we cannot have knowledge of what cannot be quantified and observed by humans".
This certainly isn't to say that Atheists believe that if we haven't observed it yet then it cannot exist. In fact, science has postulated that 99% of the energy and matter of our Universe is Dark Energy and Dark Matter and that we have never observed these things thus we know almost nothing about 99% of existence.

So with regards to prayer, humans have not been able to statistically measure a positive outcome of prayer. This certainly puts boundaries onto what prayers are granted. Those that can be measure are not granted. This means that prayer for sunny wedding days, prayers for healthy bodies, cures from sickness, financial or material benefits, sporting outcomes, exam outcomes, these sort of prayers aren't measurably answered.

This is not to say that prayer is never answered, but an analytical Atheist would no doubt look to gain an understanding on what prayer is and which prayers can be answered as to which prayers cannot be answered.

Please don't look at Atheists as people that are hell bent on proving Religion is baloney. Atheists are searching for physical, measurable evidence as this is a way to gain feedback substantiating theories put forth.

The conundrum is this:
Without feedback an Atheist cannot believe a theory, however with feedback, belief is no longer required.
[/quote]

So basically an atheist is damned if they do and damned if they don't?

[stevil]

I'm just saying that you will struggle to convince an Atheist (that desires physical evidence) of certain aspects of your faith (like prayer) especially when this aspect requires faith without physical evidence.

[reyb]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Again according to [url="http://www.gotatheism.com/prayer.asp"]http://www.gotatheism.com/prayer.asp[/url] [/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif](Sorry if I have to cut and paste this page but, it is necessary to give emphasis on their sentiments and let us discuss this in relation to what they are saying that prayer is pointless.)[/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][quote][/font]
[size=3][b]Five Basic Assumptions of Christianity[/b][/size]

[size=3]To understand the problems that atheists see in prayer, we must first start with five basic assumptions that all Christians make about their God:[b]God is all-knowing.[/b] He knows everything that has happened in the past, is aware of everything going on in the present, and knows what will happen in the future.[/size]
[size=3][b]1. God is all-powerful.[/b] He has the power to do anything we can imagine.[/size]
[size=3][b]2. God has a plan:[/b] He created us, the planet, and the universe with a purpose, and we are all part of that purpose. Everything that happens to us or around us is a part of that plan, even though we don't always see the plan or understand it. Everything happens for a reason. (We often hear about God's plan when something bad happens: "Well, it is all part of God's plan, and we aren't always meant to understand his plan.")[/size]
[size=3][b]3. God gave us free will[/b], and this is why evil exists in the world. Because some people are sinners and choose evil.[/size]
[size=3][b]4. God has the ability to answer prayers.[/b] God hears all prayers, but sometimes his answer is no.[/size]
[size=3]So far so good. Each of these concepts seems perfectly reasonable in and of themselves. But when we start combining them with other notions, we start to run into trouble, as we will see shortly.[/size]

[size=3]Now we will ask three yes or no questions. And we will demonstrate that regardless of how you answer the question, you invariably contradict one of the basic assumptions described above.[/size]

[size=3]Q: Can the actions of man change God's plan?[/size]

[size=3]If Yes, then it isn't much of a plan. If the plan must be changed based on something man does, or something he wishes to do, then it would seem to indicate that god is neither all-powerful nor all-knowing. The whole notion that he has a plan suggests that there was some outcome which he had pre-ordained. If there is some contingency that he failed to plan for, then God is not all-knowing. Likewise, if man can force God to change his plan, God is not all-powerful.[/size]
[size=3]If No, then man doesn't really have free-will. All of our actions and the consequences of our actions have been pre-determined for us by God. If what we do will make no difference in the long run, then our actions are inconsequential, and what we perceive to be free-will is really just an illusion; an elaborate part of God's plan.[/size]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][/quote][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]So let us start from here[b]. [/b][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][b]Q: Can the actions of man change God's plan?[/b][/font]

Edited October 8, 2011 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1318073832' post='2317879']
I'm just saying that you will struggle to convince an Atheist (that desires physical evidence) of certain aspects of your faith (like prayer) especially when this aspect requires faith without physical evidence.
[/quote]

[size=4]And this is my answer to the question in [url="http://www.gotatheism.com/prayer.asp"]http://www.gotatheism.com/prayer.asp[/url]….[/size]

[size=4]No. Because the intention of prayers is not to change God’s plan but to follow Him according to his plan as it is written in 1 Tim 2:1-4.,[/size]

[size=4][quote][/size]
[size=4][b]I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.[/b][/size]
[size=4][/quote][/size]

Edited October 8, 2011 by reyb

[Blessed_Irmengard]

Funnily enough, there has been a study that says that people who are sick and get pray for and KNOW that someone is praying for them are more likely to get complications or a relapse. I don't have a link, though, just read about it somewhere. :-)
I think prayer can be understood as a valuable resource by believers and atheists alike. It helps to get some introspection on your needs and on your situation. It helps you to calm down and think about what's really important to you. If you just want to give thanks in prayer - well, being grateful keeps people mentally balanced and makes them happy (-> studies, again. Sorry, no link.). So what's not to like? Besides, the fact that prayers surface in any culture, from the olderst to the most modern, shows that they seem to be important to people and "work" in some way. Not that you get what you pray for, necessarily, but maybe as a form for humans to express their innermost thoughts and feelings.

[Aloysius]

Man does not change God's will in prayer, but participates in it. If I ask God to heal someone and He does, then his foreknowledge was always to answer my prayer by healing that person, His plan was always to answer my prayer to heal that person. My free will participated in it, had I not prayed perhaps He would not have healed that person. His plan was to heal in response to that prayer.

that's the relation between time and eternity that's hard to understand. God's foreknowledge and plan does not contradict the importance of our actions.

[stevil]

But of course god does not heal people in response to prayer. That could be statistacally measured however there are no studies which suggest that sick people who are prayed for are more likely to heal.

[Aloysius]

indeed, we do not claim any quantifiable provable effectiveness of some vague term like "prayer"--if we claimed such quantifiable provable evidence, we would no longer be arguing that there is a personal God, we would be arguing for some sort of force that we have the skill to tap into. prayer would be a science, some other healing tool. but prayer is not science to the Christian, it is supplication. we don't control it. it is about God's personal will, and our participation in it.

we do not control God. God's will is God's will. sometimes our prayers are a participation in God's will, sometimes we are just mortal men who cannot understand why the will of God is not aligned with what we want.

I know that's not a satisfying answer, but the fact remains that if we could scientifically prove "prayer" healed people, we wouldn't be talking about Christian prayer, we'd be talking about something like Reiki, some spiritual act where the human being practicing the act has the power. in Christian prayer, it is God who has the power and we who plead with Him. the answer is sometimes simply "no, it is their time to go."

does praying for healing make one more likely to heal? NOT NECESSARILY, for it is a personal God with a will towards the greatest good (that we cannot fully understand) who makes the decision in response to that prayer.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Aloysius

[stevil]

So does that mean that prayer for healing someone is a waste of time? If not, then please describe why not?

[Aloysius]

it is not, because God does indeed answer such prayers, depending on His will and the circumstances surrounding any given scenario. that doesn't mean praying for someone is going to statistically give them a better outcome, though. prayer is not a magic formula to heal someone.

I would argue that there are definitely cases in which someone is healed who would not otherwise have been healed because someone prayed for them to be healed. there are also definitely cases in which people pray for someone and God does not heal them because, in His infinite wisdom, His plan does not include that particular person recovering in this life. because of this, it is impossible to statistically measure anything in regards to healing and prayer (aside from the medical statistics about how prayer can be beneficial due to the psychological optimism it can give someone that assist them in fighting off an illness).

of course, we can explain the same facts with the non-existence of God. but I offer that the personal God proclaimed by Christianity demands those facts exist that way as well; if prayer could be statistically proven to heal, we would be but pagans who thought they controlled their gods' powers. we cannot control God's powers, we supplicate Him and then trust that He will do what is best, even if we cannot see it.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Aloysius

[Papist]

God's will may not be in accordance with your petition. When praying it is good to add a prayer to help you accept God's will. One should not pray to God as if he is some kind of Santa Claus.

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318413764' post='2320026']
it is not, because God does indeed answer such prayers, depending on His will and the circumstances surrounding any given scenario. that doesn't mean praying for someone is going to statistically give them a better outcome, though. prayer is not a magic formula to heal someone.
[/quote]
This makes no sense. If some such prayers were answered then we would see a consistent statistical advantage, no matter how slight this might be. Given that there is no advantage it most certainly means that these prayers are not answered, not to the degree that a person is physically healed.

[Papist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1318445456' post='2320241']
This makes no sense. If some such prayers were answered then we would see a consistent statistical advantage, no matter how slight this might be. Given that there is no advantage it most certainly means that these prayers are not answered, not to the degree that a person is physically healed.
[/quote]
Who decides the prayer is answered? If I pray for a new bike and I never get one, is my prayer unanswered?

[stevil]

Is it just coincidence then that answered prayer measures statistically exactly the same as events not prayed for?