Fbi Destroyed File On Obama's Grandfather

[Socrates]

[quote name='eustace scrubb' date='13 April 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1271178279' post='2092519']
that's incredibly sad.

btw what would you say the political makeup here is? it's obvious that most people here are pro-life, but what's the breakdown on, say, fiscal conservativism and the Religious Right (not moral conservativism, but rather, identifying with Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition and its tactics, etc...)? i just want a rough estimate.
[/quote]
Here's an old poll I made not long after I joined Phatmass on PM's political makeup: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=27898&st=0&p=497787&fromsearch=1&#entry497787

(It'll be interesting to bump that up. There were no anarchists on phatmass back when that poll was last up.)
Most phatmassers are pro-life, but there's a wide range of opinions and a lot of disagreement as to what kind of economic system is best, or how much power the government should have (or whether it should exist at all).


I've long been known as one of the most conservative posters on phatmass. (Though I realize that's an ambiguous term.) My views are similar in general to the ones Raphael gave here.
I'm pro-life and believe that government should support morality, rather than oppose it (I'm against state-recognized "gay marriage" and "civil unions," state funding of abortion and contraception, etc.) I'm not affiliated with Pat Robertson, and generally don't care one way or the other what he says. I think his name and the term "religious right" is often invoked by the left to smear anyone who is pro-life or believes in moral principles in the public sphere.
I'm also for a small, limited government, and a strong believer in the principle of the 10th Amendment - "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Things should where possible be handled at the lowest level possible, and rarely by the federal government.
I'm for free markets, and against all forms of socialism, and I'm a strong believer in the right of citizens to keep and bear arms, as guaranteed in the Second Amendment.

[Socrates]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='13 April 2010 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1271199501' post='2092775']
I'm a pro-life Democrat, social liberal, fiscal conservative, environmentalist. It should be no surprise that I'm married to a man with schizophrenia with that mess of ideologies.

By the way, I'd also like to see the proof that Obama was born in the US. It's a character issue more than anything. The fact that he is a Socialist isn't a surprise considering he wasn't raised in this country.
[/quote]
Do you mean "fiscal liberal, social conservative"?

The term may have different nuance in Canada, but in the States, saying someone is a "social liberal" typically means they are pro-abortion, pro-homosexual "rights," condoms-in-the-schools, etc.

[Socrates]

[quote name='eustace scrubb' date='13 April 2010 - 01:41 PM' timestamp='1271180466' post='2092550']
that is incredibly depressing. i don't see how libertarianism is in any way consistent with the Church. in fact, it's been said by several people in the economic world that the Reformation paved the way for capitalism. and as someone who is not a capitalist, it's shocking to me that it would have as much support as it does on a Catholic message board. [/quote]
I'm not a libertarian per se, but I do agree with them on a lot of things, as I'm for free markets and small government. I disagree with them mostly in that most of them also want morality completely divorced from law and government.
The government's gotten way too big, and needs to be radically scaled back.

I'd recommend reading [url="The Church and the Market: A Catholic Defense of the Free Economy"][i]The Church and the Market: A Catholic Defense of the Free Economy[/i], by Thomas E. Woods Jr.[/url], as well as other books by Woods. Not saying you'll agree with it, but he provides a great and compelling Catholic case for the free market.

I believe I saw you call yourself socialist elsewhere. Socialism has been explicitly condemned by the Church, so you'll find little support for it here.

[quote]hopefully this won't be an impediment to my receiving spiritual support (of which i have very little)

. last night i went to the oldest, not to mention most conservative, traditionalist Catholic church in my city with a Catholic friend for the Adoration of the Eucharist. towards the end of it, we had a horrifying experience with the head priest and a friend of my friend, where they attempted to rush me into becoming a priest by fast-talking me. they didn't listen to me and i had to keep repeating myself. the priest said that he HATED Vatican II, didn't see what was so important about fellowship, and it turns out that they don't even let people drink the wine there!!! my Catholic friend asked why and the only answer he was given, despite asking at least twice, was that "it's tradition there." when the head priest finally realized that i was trying to tell him that i felt God leading me to the Ukrainian Eastern Rite, he got very angry and said "that is not Catholic, that is EASTERN! it is Byzantine." he said he had a friend who was a Maronite seminarian or something, but it seemed that he wasn't very approving of the Maronites, which i found entirely disgusting. he even went so far as to say that he didn't even know if the Eastern Rite followed the same catechism!!!!!! meanwhile, his friend, who was pushing my Catholic friend really hard to join the priesthood and was acting all weasely and creepy. when it became clear that they weren't getting what they wanted from us, the meeting ended somewhat abruptly. the friend of the priest went back to the sanctuary with us, grabbed some bulletins for my friend and i and encouraged us to email the priest about setting up RCIA there for me. i left there in a daze, questioning things. the friend of the priest had this blue book that he said to him "would be our new gospel" and was all about Mary. as people who have had visions of Mary, pray the rosary, pray to her regularly, and have a lot of respect for her, my friend and i were very disturbed. while discussing it afterward, i even had a vision of Mary weeping about it while we were discussing it. the Holy Spirit was very present during this vision, too...

[/quote]
Sounds like you ran into some real weirdos there. Most "trads" are not like that, though there's some bizarre groups and people in the fringes. I'd stay the hell away from that parish. Anyone who promotes a book as "your new gospel" is not truly Catholic - sounds more like some sort of weird cult.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Socrates' date='14 April 2010 - 10:50 AM' timestamp='1271260247' post='2093234']
Do you mean "fiscal liberal, social conservative"?

The term may have different nuance in Canada, but in the States, saying someone is a "social liberal" typically means they are pro-abortion, pro-homosexual "rights," condoms-in-the-schools, etc.
[/quote]
Nope, I meant what I said. I believe in social programs for the poor and disabled that most conservatives don't. I think though that government is way too big, and lots of money gets spent on pork barrel that could go for the common good. Maybe I should come up with a new name for it. How about Moral Liberal.

[jeffpugh]

Wow... CatM and I have a similar train of thought.

Though, it seems nowadays, Liberal = bad guys, conservative = good guys. And anything "Catholic" sounding HAS to be conservative, because it pertains to the good guys, right?

Edited April 14, 2010 by Sacred Music Man

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='14 April 2010 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1271281240' post='2093548']
Wow... CatM and I have a similar train of thought.

Though, it seems nowadays, Liberal = bad guys, conservative = good guys. And anything "Catholic" sounding HAS to be conservative, because it pertains to the good guys, right?
[/quote]
The truth is, equating Catholic morality with conservatism is not an invention of conservatives, nor used exclusively by them. Liberals repeatedly condemn Catholic views on things like abortion, contraceptives, and sexual morality as being "ultra-conservative," as though they are simply the product of right-wing politics or being blindly reactionary.

Like it or not, "traditional morality" is widely regarded in today's world as a conservative principle, and self-proclaimed liberals who support such morality are definitely in the minority.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='14 April 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1271275546' post='2093439']
Nope, I meant what I said. I believe in social programs for the poor and disabled that most conservatives don't.
[/quote]
In what country? Certainly not the U.S.

If you mean to say "I believe in federal social programs..." and most conservatives don't, you are correct. Conservatives believe in helping, not harming.

Federal social programs are soul sucking, apathy inducing, income stealing monuments of epic fail.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='14 April 2010 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1271289866' post='2093597']
In what country? Certainly not the U.S.

If you mean to say "I believe in federal social programs..." and most conservatives don't, you are correct. Conservatives believe in helping, not harming.

Federal social programs are soul sucking, apathy inducing, income stealing monuments of epic fail.
[/quote]
So, um, if you were in charge, when I became disabled, instead of the federal help I received eventually, I would have been on the street. bummer.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Socrates' date='14 April 2010 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1271287204' post='2093589']
The truth is, equating Catholic morality with conservatism is not an invention of conservatives, nor used exclusively by them. Liberals repeatedly condemn Catholic views on things like abortion, contraceptives, and sexual morality as being "ultra-conservative," as though they are simply the product of right-wing politics or being blindly reactionary.

Like it or not, "traditional morality" is widely regarded in today's world as a conservative principle, and self-proclaimed liberals who support such morality are definitely in the minority.
[/quote]


On a select number of issues.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='14 April 2010 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1271295557' post='2093655']
So, um, if you were in charge, when I became disabled, instead of the federal help I received eventually, I would have been on the street. bummer.
[/quote]

oh but CathM! you dont understand!! While you were living on the street, washing windows for money for paper bagged liquor and bread, you would at least have the satisfaction of knowing you got their on your own, and were self reliant!!

its sooooooo simple!

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='14 April 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1271302826' post='2093771']
oh but CathM! you dont understand!! While you were living on the street, washing windows for money for paper bagged liquor and bread, you would at least have the satisfaction of knowing you got their on your own, and were self reliant!!

its sooooooo simple!



[/quote]
I couldn't reach a windshield from my wheelchair. Of course without the government I wouldn't have had the wheelchair. I was basically abandoned by my family because being disabled is an embarrassment for an Okie. My personal insurance wouldn't pay because I had been hurt inside my office building, and workman's comp wouldn't pay because I was in the hall outside my office and couldn't prove it was work related. Victim's compensation paid for my initial hospitalization, but no rehab. Catholic Charities was good for 48 hours of hotel after I lost my home because I lost my job because I couldn't do the job anymore after my unemployment ran out. There wasn't even any room at the homeless shelter I used to volunteer at. I had an offer to sleep at the rectory, but I didn't want to put him in danger. Honestly, I tried every charity in town. Without government assistance, I can't even imagine what might have happened to me.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='14 April 2010 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1271295557' post='2093655']
So, um, if you were in charge, when I became disabled, instead of the federal help I received eventually, I would have been on the street. bummer.
[/quote]
Depends on the help you are looking for. 99.9% can be handled at the local and state levels via governmental and non-governmental solutions.

You can thank a republican for helping you get off the street and onto the curb. The American Disabilities Act was a federal standard for accessibility and the largest piece of legislation to affect the lives of the disabled for the better. This was in spite of the initial version's problems. In 2008, Bush Jr. amended the Act adding more changes, improving lives even further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADA_Amendments_Act_of_2008

Time to switch from the party of death and racism.

[eustace scrubb]

this is a lot to reply to... and i'm recovering from a stomach problem that made me have to go to the hospital. i don't know how long it'll be until i'm at 100%. btw apologies for the generalized anger in this thread and how i hijacked it. i've been going through a lot lately and haven't always been handling it the right way. my only [i]regular[/i] fellowship (currently) with other Catholics is with one friend and this site and i regularly get hit by waves of Protestantism. i have other friends who are sympathetic or Catholic, but don't get to spend time with them much. prayers for that to change would be greatly appreciated.

anyhow, back to the thread...

could someone cite where socialism was officially condemned by the Church? i'm more of a "hey, europe seems to be doing things better than america..." guy than anything, but i am sympathetic to liberation theology (i don't agree with it, though). i recognize that THAT was condemned by the Church, but it's probably the most significant movement in latin-american history and has led to an incredible amount of positive change.


HCF,

i regularly have to deal with crazy people who obsess on things like that and there's an intense amount of racism and hatred towards people who are on disability (like me... and i've even had my life threatened partly over that.) here, so i had a knee-jerk reaction to that. the way that liberals are corrupt and annoying in NJ is comparable to the way that conservatives are here. at this point, i don't know which one is worse...

the focus of a lot of the stuff on WND was inflammatory. also, it wasn't just the matter of Obama's birth that i took issue with. and yes, i recognize that someone can write articles on something despite having (what i feel are some) crazy beliefs, but the degree to which that site focused on the aforementioned issue is the real thing that threw me off...



to whoever said that sainthood was a fringe movement,

i think that that's a very bad parallel. from what i've seen, "birthers" are generally hateful and often racially prejudiced.

[Nihil Obstat]

Hope you're feeling ok. Stomach problems are the worst. I've got some GI issues as well.

[eustace scrubb]

thank you and i'm sorry to hear that.

unfortunately, i'm not okay and don't know how long it'll be before i can get around regularly again. could be as long as two weeks, but hopefully less. whatever the case, i'm glad things aren't worse than they are. it was initially thought that i had internal bleeding. what i have isn't as serious as that, but i'm not about to advertise it, as it's gross.