Winchester Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1272160049' post='2099479'] the entire country must make guns illegal. also the penalties for having guns need to be majorily upgraded. if you make the penlties for having a gun severe enough, it will reduce the number of people who carry illegal guns. without both of these, its not possible. [/quote] Making guns illegal is tyrrany. I have a right defend myself and as such a right to own modern means of defending myself. If you educated yourself about gun ownership, you would no longer support such an indefensible position. Making private ownership of guns illegal or extremely difficult has really worked in Mexico. The drug gangs don't use guns at all. Edited April 25, 2010 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 (edited) I would sooner become an anarchist than engage in state worship. Edited April 25, 2010 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='Winchester' date='24 April 2010 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1272164913' post='2099523'] Making guns illegal is tyrrany. I have a right defend myself and as such a right to own modern means of defending myself. If you educated yourself about gun ownership, you would no longer support such an indefensible position. Making private ownership of guns illegal or extremely difficult has really worked in Mexico. The drug gangs don't use guns at all. [/quote] again, you can not just make guns illegal. the country must make strict punishments for illegal gun ownership. and it must always implement these harsh punishments. without it, making guns illegal does nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 April 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1272162061' post='2099496'] Oh, I'm not laughing. Havok's nanny state idea is profoundly frightening. [/quote] you do know a nanny state and wanting guns illegal except for certain circumstances are not the same thing? do you know this? cause your post seems to imply otherwise. that you don't know the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1272165573' post='2099526'] again, you can not just make guns illegal. the country must make strict punishments for illegal gun ownership. and it must always implement these harsh punishments. without it, making guns illegal does nothing. [/quote] Again: Making guns illegal is tyranny. I guess we're all pretending that in countries like Mexico there's not a penalty for illegally owning a weapon. Okay. Pretending real hard. Also pretending that recent tyrannies didn't begin with disarming citizens. Okay, we're ready to hear your completely unhistorical arguments in favor of violating civil rights that will result in criminals not owning guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1272166751' post='2099533'] you do know a nanny state and wanting guns illegal except for certain circumstances are not the same thing? do you know this? cause your post seems to imply otherwise. that you don't know the difference. [/quote] Right. Making guns illegal is tyranny. On the other hand, making both guns and alcohol illegal is a tyrannical nanny state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 April 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1272167359' post='2099543'] Right. Making guns illegal is tyranny. On the other hand, making both guns and alcohol illegal is a tyrannical nanny state. [/quote] to be tyranical nanny state one needs do more than make guns and alcohol illegal. just doing those 2 things does not make a state a tyranical nanny state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Great. A Gun debate now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 11:06 PM' timestamp='1272168407' post='2099566'] to be tyranical nanny state one needs do more than make guns and alcohol illegal. just doing those 2 things does not make a state a tyranical nanny state. [/quote] Well if they strongly enforced those laws, it certainly would be. How do you enforce laws against owning firearms and drinking? Have to have a pretty close eye on your citizens. Remember, Big Brother is watching. I'm sure Mr. Obama would be more than happy to oblige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='Winchester' date='24 April 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1272167052' post='2099535'] Again: Making guns illegal is tyranny. I guess we're all pretending that in countries like Mexico there's not a penalty for illegally owning a weapon. Okay. Pretending real hard. Also pretending that recent tyrannies didn't begin with disarming citizens. Okay, we're ready to hear your completely unhistorical arguments in favor of violating civil rights that will result in criminals not owning guns. [/quote] what i purposed has NEVER been done in history. so their is no historical arguements for it or against it. no state has ever completely outlawed guns and added very strict punishments (numerous years in prison) for owning illegal guns. the most states have done it make some guns illegal but other were legal. or they have only made it illegal not to have a permit for a gun. although again, their penalties are not on the level i am talking about. i never said criminals will not own guns, because if someone wants one bad enough and is will to kill and rape for something, they can probobly get it. what i am saying is it will drastically reduce the number of guns in the hands of criminals and the crime rate will decrease and so will criminals on the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 11:11 PM' timestamp='1272168683' post='2099571'] [b]what i purposed has NEVER been done in history[/b]. so their is no historical arguements for it or against it. no state has ever completely outlawed guns and added very strict punishments (numerous years in prison) for owning illegal guns. the most states have done it make some guns illegal but other were legal. or they have only made it illegal not to have a permit for a gun. although again, their penalties are not on the level i am talking about. [/quote] What about feudal Japan where civilians were strictly forbidden from owning weapons? Oh wait, those weren't guns. No wonder it doesn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 April 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1272168499' post='2099568'] Well if they strongly enforced those laws, it certainly would be. How do you enforce laws against owning firearms and drinking? Have to have a pretty close eye on your citizens. Remember, Big Brother is watching. I'm sure Mr. Obama would be more than happy to oblige. [/quote] i NEVER EVER said anything about big brother watching over you. i am completely against that idea. enforce the laws when someone is caught with the gun. criminals break laws. no way to get around this. when said criminal is caught for a crime of attempted robbery let's say, not only does he get time for robbery but tack on 5-10 years for having an illegal gun. anytime someone is caught with an illegal gun, they get 5-10 years. that's how you enforce it. although i am not for big brother watching over you and invading your right to privacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 April 2010 - 12:14 AM' timestamp='1272168871' post='2099575'] What about feudal Japan where civilians were strictly forbidden from owning weapons? Oh wait, those weren't guns. No wonder it doesn't count. [/quote] japan argument doesn't work because of the rights of the people and the government's role in people's life. it would have to happen in a democratic country. a country with basic freedom's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1272168902' post='2099576'] i NEVER EVER said anything about big brother watching over you. i am completely against that idea. enforce the laws when someone is caught with the gun. criminals break laws. no way to get around this. when said criminal is caught for a crime of attempted robbery let's say, not only does he get time for robbery but tack on 5-10 years for having an illegal gun. anytime someone is caught with an illegal gun, they get 5-10 years. that's how you enforce it. although i am not for big brother watching over you and invading your right to privacy. [/quote] Well now here we've got a problem. If you want guns to be gone.... not just illegal, but gone, you have to do more than react when someone has one. You have to go after the source. You have to be a hard-ass about it. Otherwise some people will have a gun or two lying around just in case someone breaks in, etc.. If you're serious about guns disappearing, you have to be right on it. Reactionary policy wouldn't be nearly enough. Guns are already illegal in Canada, yet they're very easy for criminals to get. Takes months and months for a law abiding citizen, and even then you can never carry it, but I'd be willing to bet that through extra-legal means, I could get a gun in under a week. Big Brother becomes a necessity if you actually want to get rid of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 [quote name='havok579257' date='24 April 2010 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1272169011' post='2099579'] japan argument doesn't work because of the rights of the people and the government's role in people's life. it would have to happen in a democratic country. a country with basic freedom's. [/quote] Well you do now, but apparently you don't want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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