Defending Celibacy

[Winchester]

The new rule is we don't have to justify our cultural norms. All cultures are equal and beautiful.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Winchester

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='10 April 2010 - 05:37 AM' timestamp='1270899442' post='2090366']
And did Apotheon just say that becoming a priest does not, cannot help a person become better behaved than average?
[/quote]
Yes. Ordination is not a magic bullet that makes one holy. Read the prayers of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 April 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1270842214' post='2090091']
From what I understand, the majority of the abusers are in their fifties and up. When they were studying in the seminary, psychological assessment was lacking.
[/quote]

Not only are the "psychological assessments" required of seminarians completely ridiculous, they do nothing to catch potential abusers. Thank God some monasteries haven't fallen into the trap that is psychological assessments.

Unless you think knowledge of British history is relevant to a vocation.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 April 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1270932326' post='2090574']
Yes. Ordination is not a magic bullet that makes one holy. Read the prayers of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil.
[/quote]

Excellent point. However, I think many people believe (hope?) that the PROCESS of becoming a priest should help in making him more holy. Also, that the people making the decisions about candidates for ordination would (should?) be wiser than they perhaps have been in the past about denying ordination to a candidate who might have issues with celibacy.

However, I think that it's asking a lot of the people in charge of making decisions about ordination candidates, to be able to weed out all future abusers, even if the decisions are made with a lot of prayer. If it's true, as was posted earlier, that most abusers are in their 50's, then it could be very hard to tell how a candidate for ordination, who is most often in his 20's, is going to act when he is in his 50's and has been celibate (you hope) for a LONG time.

Edited April 10, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='10 April 2010 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1270933153' post='2090582']
Excellent point. However, I think many people believe (hope?) that the PROCESS of becoming a priest should help in making him more holy. Also, that the people making the decisions about candidates for ordination would (should?) be wiser than they perhaps have been in the past about denying ordination to a candidate who might have issues with celibacy.

However, I think that it's asking a lot of the people in charge of making decisions about ordination candidates, to be able to week out all future abusers, even if the decisions are made with a lot of prayer. If it's true, as was posted earlier, that most abusers are in their 50's, then it could be very hard to tell how a candidate for ordination, who is most often in his 20's, is going to act when he is in his 50's and has been celibate (you hope) for a LONG time.
[/quote]
The "process" leading to ordination is all well and good, for there needs to be screening by the Church when it comes to the validity of a man's vocation, but my point remains, i.e., that the sacraments are not magical rites that can somehow overcome man's free will. That grace is objectively present in the holy mysteries is an article of faith, but that truth of faith cannot by itself overcome the necessary subjective disposition that makes sacramental grace personally effective for each man.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 April 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1270933915' post='2090587']
The "process" leading to ordination is all well and good, for there needs to be screening by the Church when it comes to the validity of a man's vocation, but my point remains, i.e., that the sacraments are not magical rites that can somehow overcome man's free will. That grace is objectively present in the holy mysteries is an article of faith, but that truth of faith cannot by itself overcome the necessary subjective disposition that makes sacramental grace personally effective for each man.
[/quote]
The 'process' begets nothing. I agree. Just as sacraments do nothing and have no effect on present day life. They are pointless and ineffective rituals of no consequence.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='10 April 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1270940277' post='2090658']
Just as sacraments do nothing and have no effect on present day life. They are pointless and ineffective rituals of no consequence.
[/quote]
On this point we shall have to agree to disagree.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='10 April 2010 - 07:37 AM' timestamp='1270899442' post='2090366']
Oh! Think about what you just wrote.

Did you just say that psychological assesment is more effective and correcting abherent sexual behavior than the spiritual development of going through a seminary and becoming a priest. 'Grace fails' but Carl Jung prevails?

And did Apotheon just say that becoming a priest does not, cannot help a person become better behaved than average?
[/quote]
No one has argued that spiritual formation diminishes free will. Sexual predators are good at what they do.

You, however, are not.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Winchester' date='10 April 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1270950162' post='2090735']
No one has argued that spiritual formation diminishes free will. Sexual predators are good at what they do.

You, however, are not.
[/quote]Nice segue to a personal attack. You left off the obligatory "So there!".

Participating in a Religion does little to help oneself become a better person, or to benefit society over the long term. However, it does provide paying jobs for many who choose it for a good job with tenure.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='11 April 2010 - 08:47 AM' timestamp='1270990022' post='2090877']
Nice segue to a personal attack. You left off the obligatory "So there!".[/quote]
Your obsession ceased being personal the moment you trolled in here. Stop whining.
[quote]
Participating in a Religion does little to help oneself become a better person, or to benefit society over the long term.[/quote]
Your instinctive Christianity keeps you from doing great many things. It doesn't reduce free will, true, which is what you would state if you weren't an angry child. Without commitment to any belief, the rules surrounding it mean little to the people claiming to follow that belief. Add to this defects in human intellect and you have the normal human range of behavior manifest within a group
If you really believe religion has so little effect on society, I should like you to visit India and hang out with some untouchables.
You are willing to attribute to religion all the bad reults, but pretend suddenly that it has no influence in the good.

As I said: you're not very good at this. It's an assessment, not an attack.

[quote] However, it does provide paying jobs for many who choose it for a good job with tenure.
[/quote]
It's not very good pay. Especially for those who do the job properly.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Winchester' date='11 April 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1270990503' post='2090881']
Your obsession ceased being personal the moment you trolled in here. Stop whining.

Your instinctive Christianity keeps you from doing many things. It doesn't reduce free will, true, which is what you would state if you weren't an angry child. Without commitment to any belief, the rules surrounding it mean little to the people claiming to follow that belief. Add to this defects in human intellect and you have the normal human range of behavior manifest within a group
If you really believe religion has so little effect on society, I should like you to visit India and hang out with some untouchables.
You are willing to attribute to religion all the bad reults, but pretend suddenly that it has no influence in the good.

As I said: you're not very good at this. It's an assessment, not an attack.


It's not very good pay. Especially for those who do the job properly.
[/quote]