Future Of The Roman Rite

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 April 2010 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1270590175' post='2087918']
Ah, ok. See that's like... 110% lost on me. Are the recent revisions good or bad ones?[/quote]

Some are good, and some are bad. Doesn't really matter that much to me, though. If I were ever to attend Mass in Milan, I would make a point to go to one of the few churches in that city where the [i]real[/i] Ambrosian Rite is celebrated, namely, the one that is centuries old, [i]not[/i] the one that was invented by a committee in the 1970s.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 April 2010 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1270590175' post='2087918']
Ooh, know what's really cool? The old Rite of Lyons, which was Gallican.
[/quote]

The Lyonese Rite more Roman than anything. I mean, it uses the Roman Canon, even if it does have some Gallican influence.

The only really Gallican rite still in existence is the Mozarabic rite, which, if I'm not mistaken, is the only Western rite that does not use the Roman Canon.

(Note, here I refer to the Western rites in their historical forms. I know little to nothing about the post-Conciliar revisions. In fact, it's almost a misnomer to call the revised Ambrosian Rite "Ambrosian" or the revised Roman Rite "Roman" since these committee-created liturgies have little similarity to their historical forms.)

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 April 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1270590625' post='2087926']
Some are good, and some are bad. Doesn't really matter that much to me, though. If I were ever to attend Mass in Milan, I would make a point to go to one of the few churches in that city where the [i]real[/i] Ambrosian Rite is celebrated, namely, the one that is centuries old, [i]not[/i] the one that was invented by a committee in the 1970s.
[/quote]
Is there a sort of "extraordinary form of the Ambrosian Rite" community within the Milanese diocese?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 April 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1270590748' post='2087929']
Is there a sort of "extraordinary form of the Ambrosian Rite" community within the Milanese diocese?
[/quote]

Yes, there is.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 April 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1270590847' post='2087930']
Yes, there is.
[/quote]
Neat. I'd love to see the older form someday. Well I'd like to see both, but the older form would be the first choice.


Are Milanese priests allowed to say an Ambrosian Mass outside of Milan?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 April 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1270590995' post='2087932']
Neat. I'd love to see the older form someday. Well I'd like to see both, but the older form would be the first choice.


Are Milanese priests allowed to say an Ambrosian Mass outside of Milan?
[/quote]

There is really no reason that I would ever want to see the revised Ambrosian Liturgy. Committee-created liturgies are not the way to go.

In any case, I have heard of an Italian community in Buffalo, New York celebrating the traditional Ambrosian rite. I am fairly certain it is completely legal.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 April 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1270590748' post='2087929']
Is there a sort of "extraordinary form of the Ambrosian Rite" community within the Milanese diocese?
[/quote]


[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 April 2010 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1270590847' post='2087930']
Yes, there is.
[/quote]

And of course Rex knows about it.

[Bennn]

These Ambrosian and Lyonese Rites are pretty much new to me. I didn't know they were still in existence.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Bennn' date='07 April 2010 - 06:43 AM' timestamp='1270640611' post='2088301']
These Ambrosian and Lyonese Rites are pretty much new to me. I didn't know they were still in existence.
[/quote]
The Rite of Lyons is not. We only have a few very ancient manuscripts with which to reconstruct what we believe it to have been like.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 April 2010 - 09:58 AM' timestamp='1270652289' post='2088380']
The Rite of Lyons is not. We only have a few very ancient manuscripts with which to reconstruct what we believe it to have been like.
[/quote]

That isn't correct. New editions of the liturgical books of the Rite of Lyons were [url="http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/12/lyonese-liturgical-feature-spotted-at.html"]published[/url] through the first half of the 20th century. By the provisions of [i]Summorum Pontificum[/i], any priest of the diocese of Lyons is free to use it.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='07 April 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1270672304' post='2088658']
That isn't correct. New editions of the liturgical books of the Rite of Lyons were [url="http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/12/lyonese-liturgical-feature-spotted-at.html"]published[/url] through the first half of the 20th century. By the provisions of [i]Summorum Pontificum[/i], any priest of the diocese of Lyons is free to use it.
[/quote]

Why did someone give you a -1 for that? Dumb. Sorry I can't fix it.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='07 April 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1270672765' post='2088661']
Why did someone give you a -1 for that? Dumb. Sorry I can't fix it.
[/quote]
Can. Did. Done.

[Formosus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='07 April 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1270672304' post='2088658']
That isn't correct. New editions of the liturgical books of the Rite of Lyons were [url="http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/12/lyonese-liturgical-feature-spotted-at.html"]published[/url] through the first half of the 20th century. By the provisions of [i]Summorum Pontificum[/i], any priest of the diocese of Lyons is free to use it.
[/quote]


Hmm interesting. Does that mean Latin priests in England could celebrate the Sarum use as according to Summorum Pontificum? Or has that not really been decided yet? I think its sad that a lot of these ancient western liturgies were abandoned over time for the sake of conformity with the Roman church. A lot of beauty was lost.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='07 April 2010 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1270672304' post='2088658']
That isn't correct. New editions of the liturgical books of the Rite of Lyons were [url="http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/12/lyonese-liturgical-feature-spotted-at.html"]published[/url] through the first half of the 20th century. By the provisions of [i]Summorum Pontificum[/i], any priest of the diocese of Lyons is free to use it.
[/quote]
My information must be seriously misinformed.
I hate when that happens. Makes me look bad.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Formosus' date='08 April 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1270704323' post='2089072']
Hmm interesting. Does that mean Latin priests in England could celebrate the Sarum use as according to Summorum Pontificum? Or has that not really been decided yet? I think its sad that a lot of these ancient western liturgies were abandoned over time for the sake of conformity with the Roman church. A lot of beauty was lost.
[/quote]

I am not sure if priests could celebrate the Sarum Use with no permission. I would like for that to be the case, since I am a big fan of the Sarum Use. However since the Sarum Use was not in use in England during the first half of the 20th century, I don't know if Summorum Pontificum would apply it in the same way that it does to the traditional Ambrosian Rite (which definitely was being used in Milan immediately before the liturgical reforms of the 1960s and 1970s). In any case, a priest definitel [i]could[/i] get permission from his bishop to celebrate by Sarum Use by means of an indult. This was actually done a few times in the 1980s or 1990s for a special occasion, if I'm not mistaken.

By the way, I wouldn't say that the Sarum Use disappeared in England for the sake of conformity with the Roman rite. It disappeared because, after the Reformation, Sarum liturgical books were not being printed. The missionary priests in England had to use the liturgical books they could get, which were the Roman liturgical books. After the restoration of the hierarchy in England, a return to the Sarum Use was suggested by some, but it was decided that the Roman rite, which had presently been used by Catholics in England for centuries, would be used instead.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Resurrexi