Has Or Is?

[Luigi]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='06 April 2010 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1270528893' post='2087497']
It's where our language comes from.
[/quote]
I know. But it's not what we speak today. And I always think it's nice if we can actually communicate something that other people will understand when we speak.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Luigi' date='06 April 2010 - 12:57 AM' timestamp='1270529834' post='2087507']
I know. But it's not what we speak today. And I always think it's nice if we can actually communicate something that other people will understand when we speak.
[/quote]

So if I say "He is risen" it's Greek to you?

[Luigi]

No, I understand it perfectly. Present tense of the copula, past particle of the TO RISE used as an adjective, equivalent to "He is married," or "She is seated." But I think a sentence should be parsed based on what it means now, not on what it meant or how it was used six or seven hundred years ago.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Luigi' date='06 April 2010 - 01:05 AM' timestamp='1270530309' post='2087517']
No, I understand it perfectly. Present tense of the copula, past particle of the TO RISE used as an adjective, equivalent to "He is married," or "She is seated." But I think a sentence should be parsed based on what it means now, not on what it meant or how it was used six or seven hundred years ago.
[/quote]

Christians have been speaking English and using the greeting, "Christ is risen" for six or seven hundred years.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Luigi' date='06 April 2010 - 12:05 AM' timestamp='1270530309' post='2087517']
No, I understand it perfectly. Present tense of the copula, past particle of the TO RISE used as an adjective, equivalent to "He is married," or "She is seated." But I think a sentence should be parsed based on what it means now, not on what it meant or how it was used six or seven hundred years ago.
[/quote]

The English translation of "Christ is risen" should be parsed in comparison to other languages, all of which, as far as I am aware, use the prefect tense.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 April 2010 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1270530560' post='2087520']
The English translation of "Christ is risen" should be parsed in comparison to other languages, all of which, as far as I am aware, use the prefect tense.
[/quote]

Thank you for stepping in and ending my pettiness. I kinda have a headache and am taking it out on my computer.

[Luigi]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 April 2010 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1270530560' post='2087520']
The English translation of "Christ is risen" should be parsed in comparison to other languages, all of which, as far as I am aware, use the prefect tense.
[/quote]

Resurrexit wrote: "...the prefect tense." Freudian slip?

The problem is that there is no direct equivalent between the surface forms of one language and another.

And anyway, it doesn't matter. "He has risen" is perfectly understandable and clear; "He is risen" is perfectly understandable and clear. Either veresion expresses the living-ness of Jesus. Do you not have a life, or do you just really like to quibble?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Luigi' date='06 April 2010 - 12:12 AM' timestamp='1270530774' post='2087525']
Resurrexit wrote: "...the prefect tense." Freudian slip?[/quote]

No, a typographical error.

[quote name='Luigi' date='06 April 2010 - 12:12 AM' timestamp='1270530774' post='2087525']
Do you not have a life, or do you just really like to quibble?
[/quote]

I'd rather argue than finish my homework.

[Apotheoun]

The liturgy concerns the ever present reality of Christ's saving mysteries, which are made manifest in the worship of the Church, and which can never be relegated to the past. Christ is born on Christmas day, and He rises from the dead on Pascha, and in this way the faithful who participate in the worship of the Holy Trinity enter into the divine eternity.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 April 2010 - 02:09 AM' timestamp='1270530560' post='2087520']
The English translation of "Christ is risen" should be parsed in comparison to other languages, all of which, as far as I am aware, use the prefect tense.
[/quote]

That's what Grammar Girl says...

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/unaccusative-verbs.aspx

"I don't usually talk about foreign languages, but I found it interesting that many Romance languages, such as French and Italian, still use this verb form, and it is normal today in those languages to say the English equivalent of 'He is come.'"

[Luigi]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 April 2010 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1270531627' post='2087527']
No, a typographical error.



I'd rather argue than finish my homework.
[/quote]

I apologize for getting snarky. It was late and I was tired - I get snarky when I get tired.

My point - which I didn't make as clearly as I could have, again since I was tired and snarky - is that no language, ancient or modern, living or dead, can contain-specify-express the mystery of the Resurrection or any other mystery about God for that matter. Therefore, the grammatical details of which auxiliary verb to use in which particular tense for which particular expression of which particular mystery are probably not worth quibbling about. The surface structure of the words are less important to God than what we think and feel when we are saying them. Because the Spirit reads hearts. For which I am eternally grateful. That way, even when we can't find the words to express what we think or feel, if we're just sitting there with God in mind, He understands us.

I stick by that point, but I apologize for the snarky way I went about trying to make it.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='05 April 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1270522529' post='2087406']
Here in Kentucky we say, "He done gone 'n rose."
[/quote]
Not to be confused with Guns n' Roses.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Luigi' date='06 April 2010 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1270614462' post='2088223']
I apologize for getting snarky. It was late and I was tired - I get snarky when I get tired.

My point - which I didn't make as clearly as I could have, again since I was tired and snarky - is that no language, ancient or modern, living or dead, can contain-specify-express the mystery of the Resurrection or any other mystery about God for that matter. Therefore, the grammatical details of which auxiliary verb to use in which particular tense for which particular expression of which particular mystery are probably not worth quibbling about. The surface structure of the words are less important to God than what we think and feel when we are saying them. Because the Spirit reads hearts. For which I am eternally grateful. That way, even when we can't find the words to express what we think or feel, if we're just sitting there with God in mind, He understands us.

I stick by that point, but I apologize for the snarky way I went about trying to make it.
[/quote]

Except accurate translations do matter, especially (as in this case) when the they are translations of an authoritative and ancient text.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Raphael' date='07 April 2010 - 02:02 AM' timestamp='1270616553' post='2088242']
Not to be confused with Guns n' Roses.
[/quote]

Now that's a good band. I've been known to throw down some "Welcome to the Jungle" on karaoke nights...

[Innocent]

In the one-volume-LotH version I use ([url="http://dominexaudinos.blogspot.com/2007/10/everyday-prayer.html"]Everyday Prayer From The Divine Office[/url]) the Invitatory Antiphon for Easter Sunday and Easter Octave is "The Lord has truly risen, alleluia!"