Holy Fire

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='05 April 2010 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1270489546' post='2087030']
It's said that when the Patriarch goes into Christ's tomb with an unlit torch and prays there, fire descends from heaven to ignite it. He then passes the flame to an Armenian and a Greek prelate standing outside through a hole in the wall, and then they light the tapers of the faithful.
[/quote]
Interesting.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='05 April 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1270490726' post='2087045']
Plus, for some reason, only Orthodox patriarchs can obtain the fire. Not even Catholics can do the same.

I'm not exactly sure how to think about that.
[/quote]
Source?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='05 April 2010 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1270491961' post='2087069']
Interesting.


Source?
[/quote]
[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='05 April 2010 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1270491321' post='2087054']
I read that during the Crusades, Catholics failed to obtain the Holy Fire.

I don't have a source for that, but maybe Apotheoun can comment.
[/quote]

[jeffpugh]

Right. Cue Todd.

[littlesister]

Apotheoun, These visuals area beautiful. Thank you.

[mortify]

Our modern mindsets are inclined to think that the Eastern Bishops simply light the torches with matches, but God knows best.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='mortify' date='05 April 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1270507470' post='2087276']
Our modern mindsets are inclined to think that the Eastern Bishops simply light the torches with matches, but God knows best.
[/quote]

I find it impossible to believe that a miracle would occur at the beck and call of a non-Catholic bishop.

'One Armenian torch-bearer, Soukias Tchilingirian, claims: "It's not a miracle. The Greek priests bring in a lamp - one that has been kept burning for 1,500 years - to produce the Holy Fire. For pilgrims full of faith who come from abroad, it is a fire from Heaven, a true miracle. But not for us. Of course the source of the fire is ancient and symbolic. I heard this from my father and I think he knew the truth."'

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='05 April 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1270512605' post='2087314']
I find it impossible to believe that a miracle would occur at the beck and call of a non-Catholic bishop.
[/quote]

The miracle of all miracles happens at the beck and call of non-Catholic bishops and priests and, God forbid, bishops and priests that are not even in the state of grace every time that they confect the Eucharist or give absolution.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='05 April 2010 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1270512900' post='2087316']
The miracle of all miracles happens at the beck and call of non-Catholic bishops and priests and, God forbid, bishops and priests that are not even in the state of grace every time that they confect the Eucharist or give absolution.
[/quote]

Well, yes, but that's because sacraments work ex opere operato. I don't think the same can be said of other miracles.

[Apotheoun]

[url="http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/holyfire.aspx"]The Miracle of the Holy Fire in Jerusalem[/url]

[Innocent]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 April 2010 - 06:40 AM' timestamp='1270512605' post='2087314']
I find it impossible to believe that a miracle would occur at the beck and call of a non-Catholic bishop.
[/quote]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 April 2010 - 06:48 AM' timestamp='1270513082' post='2087320']
... I don't think the same can be said of other miracles.
[/quote]


Can one deduce from Church teaching that a miracle could not occur under such circumstances?

[mortify]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='05 April 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1270512605' post='2087314']
I find it impossible to believe that a miracle would occur at the beck and call of a non-Catholic bishop.[/quote]

I don't know the theology surrounding this issue but I can say from experience that miracles do happen among non-Catholics. Perhaps God takes into account the sincere [i]desires[/i] of those who seek Him the only way they know how.

[quote]'One Armenian torch-bearer, Soukias Tchilingirian, claims: "It's not a miracle. The Greek priests bring in a lamp - one that has been kept burning for 1,500 years - to produce the Holy Fire. For pilgrims full of faith who come from abroad, it is a fire from Heaven, a true miracle. But not for us. Of course the source of the fire is ancient and symbolic. I heard this from my father and I think he knew the truth."'
[/quote]

If it's a sham those bishops are flat out lying to the people and if it's ever exposed it will cause considerable scandal.

Edited April 6, 2010 by mortify

[MissyP89]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='05 April 2010 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1270512900' post='2087316']
The miracle of all miracles happens at the beck and call of non-Catholic bishops and priests and, God forbid, bishops and priests that are not even in the state of grace every time that they confect the Eucharist or give absolution.
[/quote]

+1

[Ephrem Augustine]

thousands of Copts and even Muslims alleged to have seen the Blessed Virgin at Zeitoun in Egypt.
I trust the testimony of these people who come to honor the Resurrection of Our Lord in Jerusalem as well...

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='05 April 2010 - 10:24 PM' timestamp='1270524257' post='2087432']
thousands of Copts and even Muslims alleged to have seen the Blessed Virgin at Zeitoun in Egypt.
I trust the testimony of these people who come to honor the Resurrection of Our Lord in Jerusalem as well...
[/quote]

I am skeptical of most alleged miracles, to be honest.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='05 April 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1270524314' post='2087433']
I am skeptical of most alleged miracles, to be honest.
[/quote]
So am I. Frankly, I don't think it's a bad thing. It doesn't hurt our faith either way, you know? The witness of all those people there is enough