Why Shouldn't The Pope Go To Jail For His Cover-Up Of Abuse While

[Miss Hepburn]

[quote] Raphael--------I'm quick to defend the pope because he did nothing wrong.[color="#a0522d"][b] Does anyone ever rally know that or anything for that matter about any situation?[/b][/color] The facts have been brought to light, [color="#8b0000"][b]All of them?[/b][/color] no one has challenged them, and it's quite clear that the New York Times, which has already lost all credibility and has proven that it has a bias, deliberately misrepresented the facts.

Further, if he had done something wrong, it would have been brought to light long before now.
[color="#a0522d"][b]Isn't that a bit naive, no offense intended[/b][/color].
Lastly, if we ever had the Medici involved again, or something similar, yes, I would hope that the pope would reform himself and repent of his sins. If he did, however, repent of grave sins, he would be all the more a great pope. True repentance from a lifetime of grave sin requires the grace and persistence of a saint, and we need a saintly pope. Even Peter proved this. Denying Christ is a great sin - greater, in fact, than the crimes Pope Benedict is falsely accused of - and St. Peter shows us how ready God is to make saints out of sinners. [color="#a0522d"][b]Right on, good point! [/b][/color]This doesn't mean that I would want a pope who is a grave sinner in hopes that he'd repent, but it does mean that I'd be in awe, not filled with shame, at his admission of sin and repentance. [color="#a0522d"][b]It would impress many! It would be good press for the whole of Christianity itself![/b][color="#000000"] [/[/color][/color]quote]

My 2 cents, Miss Hepburn
Sorry, also trying to figure out how this board works.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Miss Hepburn

[Saint Therese]

Well for one thing the Holy Father is the sovereign of a foreign nation-how would he be put in jail? Secondly-It is an excommunicatable offense to lay violent hands on the HOly Father so I would imagine it might be a little difficult to find someone willing to actually do the arresting.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='04 April 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1270397490' post='2086599']
Well for one thing the Holy Father is the sovereign of a foreign nation-how would he be put in jail? Secondly-It is an excommunicatable offense to lay violent hands on the HOly Father so I would imagine it might be a little difficult to find someone willing to actually do the arresting.
[/quote]
How fitting would it be for clergy to be arrested in the land where Becket was martyred for opposing civil trials of clergy?

Anyway, apparently international law does say that you can arrest and try a man if he comes to your country. Regardless, I would think diplomatic immunity would kick in for a foreign sovereign.

[CatherineM]

I've been watching the progress of the lawsuits in the US against the Vatican for the clergy abuse. If they prevail in court, I guess they can attach any Vatican assets in the US. Bank accounts, bonds, etc. would be an easy grab, but I'm thinking they will attempt to go after any Catholic asset they can get their hands on. I vote for them taking Notre Dame.

[rkwright]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='04 April 2010 - 11:56 AM' timestamp='1270400207' post='2086637']
I've been watching the progress of the lawsuits in the US against the Vatican for the clergy abuse. If they prevail in court, I guess they can attach any Vatican assets in the US. Bank accounts, bonds, etc. would be an easy grab, but I'm thinking they will attempt to go after any Catholic asset they can get their hands on. I vote for them taking Notre Dame.
[/quote]

Do you know the name of the one where the district judge ruled the Plaintiffs could continue their suit against the vatican - that the vatican was not entitled to sovereign immunity?

[Ed Normile]

On the question of whether they could actually arrest the Pope, I would doubt that as he is the leader, or ruler if you want of a sovreign nation. It is not often you hear of a nations ruler being arrested.

Also, I feel he is not now, nor never was, personally responsible for either the incidents of abuse or the alledged cover up of any such incident.

ed

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='04 April 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1270397490' post='2086599']Secondly-It is an excommunicatable offense to lay violent hands on the HOly Father so I would imagine it might be a little difficult to find someone willing to actually do the arresting.
[/quote]

It wouldn't be difficult to find someone willing to arrest the pope in England if they were really setting out to do it. Anti-Catholic sentiments run pretty deep in the UK. But I think a lot of that is just talk (again, the deep-rooted anti-Catholic sentiment). But it's a moot point, as there is no real tangible case that could lead to an arrest.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Miss Hepburn' date='04 April 2010 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1270397308' post='2086598']
[quote] Raphael--------I'm quick to defend the pope because he did nothing wrong.[color="#a0522d"][b] Does anyone ever rally know that or anything for that matter about any situation?[/b][/color] The facts have been brought to light, [color="#8b0000"][b]All of them?[/b][/color] no one has challenged them, and it's quite clear that the New York Times, which has already lost all credibility and has proven that it has a bias, deliberately misrepresented the facts.

Further, if he had done something wrong, it would have been brought to light long before now.
[color="#a0522d"][b]Isn't that a bit naive, no offense intended[/b][/color].
Lastly, if we ever had the Medici involved again, or something similar, yes, I would hope that the pope would reform himself and repent of his sins. If he did, however, repent of grave sins, he would be all the more a great pope. True repentance from a lifetime of grave sin requires the grace and persistence of a saint, and we need a saintly pope. Even Peter proved this. Denying Christ is a great sin - greater, in fact, than the crimes Pope Benedict is falsely accused of - and St. Peter shows us how ready God is to make saints out of sinners. [color="#a0522d"][b]Right on, good point! [/b][/color]This doesn't mean that I would want a pope who is a grave sinner in hopes that he'd repent, but it does mean that I'd be in awe, not filled with shame, at his admission of sin and repentance. [color="#a0522d"][b]It would impress many! It would be good press for the whole of Christianity itself![/b][color="#000000"] [/[/color][/color]quote]

My 2 cents, Miss Hepburn
Sorry, also trying to figure out how this board works.
[/quote]
Yes the facts ARE known from the people actually involved, and the Holy Father wasn't one of them. He has nothing to apologize for since he hasn't done anything wrong.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='rkwright' date='04 April 2010 - 12:50 PM' timestamp='1270403453' post='2086656']
Do you know the name of the one where the district judge ruled the Plaintiffs could continue their suit against the vatican - that the vatican was not entitled to sovereign immunity?
[/quote]
One case is out of Kentucky and one is out of Oregon. The Kentucky case involves something that happened in 1928. The priest died in 1952. The Oregon case occurred in the 60's with a priest that was moved from Ireland to Chicago to Portland eventually. I'm about a decade removed from my Westlaw terminal, but if you search for it, search for Holy See, not Vatican. That's the legal name.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='03 April 2010 - 07:05 AM' timestamp='1270292743' post='2085959']
find evidence of his crime....not allegednesses.

take him to court.

Find him guilty, if the evidence is there

throw him in jail.

let there be justice.

But then I feel the same way about all men, women, catholics, presbies, lutherans, hindus, muslims, americans, canadiens, chinese, and bunchie lovers. If you are proven, in a court of law, of this crime, you go to jail. Hopefully for a long time.

Be advised the Church does not own the police, the courts, or the judges. Ask THOSE people why he is not being brought to trial for this 'alleged' cover up.

I would suspect the lack of 'real' evidence... Axes to grind like the NYT, Maureen Dowd, Chris Hitchens, and the MSM as a whole do not stand up in a court of law as when you get to the facts, the few they have are obscured by their hatred of Christ and His Church.

I am sure other posters, smarter than I, can bring some facts of more truthiness to this thread.

I like to be a primer against stupidity.
[/quote]


[quote name='Resurrexi' date='03 April 2010 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1270312301' post='2086093']
I thought that clerics were to be tried in an ecclesiastical court rather than a civil court? Obviously, however, that would not be possible in that case since "The first See is judged by no-one." (Can. 1404)
[/quote]

31. The ecclesiastical forum or tribunal for the temporal causes, whether civil or criminal, of clerics, ought by all means to be abolished, even without consulting and against the protest of the Holy See. -- Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856; Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.



This is related, isn't it?

[dominicansoul]

i must say, that the misleading reports from the biased media, has erupted a storm of anti-Catholic mass hysteria...never have I seen such hatred...and people so eager to accept such outlandish accusations...how easy it is for the world to turn on the Church...

...the timing is not coincidental...

The Holy Church has just reflected and remembered the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who Himself was accused of all sorts of wrongdoing...and yet was innocent...

...Today is Easter...and we see that through the tribulation and death...comes Resurrection and Life...

The Holy Church is merely resembling Her Groom...

The CCC states that we will enter a time, where the Holy Church will suffer greatly...as will the Pope...and the Body of Christ on earth will be persecuted...the whole world will turn against Her, but in the End the TRUTH will triumph, and all the world will see the Glory of God reflected in the Church...

...until then, stay tight...stay faithful...keep praying!

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='04 April 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1270438524' post='2086802']The Holy Church has just reflected and remembered the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who Himself was accused of all sorts of wrongdoing...and yet was innocent...

...Today is Easter...and we see that through the tribulation and death...comes Resurrection and Life...

The Holy Church is merely resembling Her Groom...
[/quote]

Do you agree with the sexual abuse of children, domincansoul? Y/N
Do you agree it is right to cover up said abuse? Y/N

The Roman Catholic Church is [i]not innocent [/i]of wrongdoing - that is, if we take the actions of her clergy as representative of her on a whole. I'm sorry, I'm aware this is a Catholic forum and my words will not be taken well, but it is naive and silly to claim that the Church, wherever coverups have taken place, has done anything other than [i]acted wrongly[/i].

Claim she is repentant. Claim she is working hard to right the wrongs she has done. To the Roman Church's credit, these things, on the whole, are true.

But don't claim she is innocent. To do that is to slap the victims of these vicious men of whom the Church's bridegroom said it would be better that they had never been born, on the face, and tell them their suffering is for naught!

Edited April 5, 2010 by Presbylicious

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='05 April 2010 - 10:54 AM' timestamp='1270482841' post='2086960']
Do you agree with the sexual abuse of children, domincansoul? Y/N
Do you agree it is right to cover up said abuse? Y/N

The Roman Catholic Church is [i]not innocent [/i]of wrongdoing - [b]that is, if we take the actions of her clergy as representative of her on a whole.[/b] I'm sorry, I'm aware this is a Catholic forum and my words will not be taken well, but it is naive and silly to claim that the Church, wherever coverups have taken place, has done anything other than [i]acted wrongly[/i].

Claim she is repentant. Claim she is working hard to right the wrongs she has done. To the Roman Church's credit, these things, on the whole, are true.

But don't claim she is innocent. To do that is to slap the victims of these vicious men of whom the Church's bridegroom said it would be better that they had never been born, on the face, and tell them their suffering is for naught!
[/quote]
Peter, the first pope, from whom we trace in unbroken succession our Pontiffs right down to today, denied Christ three times. Did The Church deny Christ, or just a single, fallen member?

Edited April 5, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='05 April 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1270482841' post='2086960']
Do you agree with the sexual abuse of children, domincansoul? Y/N
Do you agree it is right to cover up said abuse? Y/N
[/quote]

Straw man fallacy. You want to set up people who say the pope is innocent as somehow being in favor of the abuse of children because some Catholics abused children. Unless you think the pope is supposed to know everything that goes on in every church and every diocese, your argument makes no sense.

If you want to claim that the pope knew the details of specific cases and aided in covering them up, you'll have to prove it. So far, no one, including the New York Times, has done it.

[quote]The Roman Catholic Church is [i]not innocent [/i]of wrongdoing - that is, if we take the actions of her clergy as representative of her on a whole.[/quote]

I'm glad you're admitting part of the problem with your argument. If I take the actions of a part of a group as representative of the whole, then every religious group is evil, depraved, full of deceit and depravity and maliciousness. Additionally, every politician is a lying, unfaithful adulterer only concerned with money and power. Every doctor is a jerk standing at the bedside of some peon he'd rather snuff out, and everyone who declares himself a savior, including Christ, is a liar.

You see, generalizations make no sense. They are illogical. Christians must be concerned with the truth. The truth is that the vast majority of priests and bishops are good, honest people. The truth is that the rates of abuse by priests, terrible as they are, are nonetheless substantially lower than any other rated group.

If you take the actions of some as representative of the whole, then you can paint the Church anyway you like. Using your same approach, I could just as easily say that every Catholic is a saint who would die for the faith without a second thought. Fortunately, I am realistic enough not to say this. Are you realistic?

[quote]I'm sorry, I'm aware this is a Catholic forum and my words will not be taken well, but it is naive and silly to claim that the Church, wherever coverups have taken place, has done anything other than [i]acted wrongly[/i].[/quote]

I agree that those who've covered up sexual abuse have acted wrongly.

[quote]Claim she is repentant. Claim she is working hard to right the wrongs she has done. To the Roman Church's credit, these things, on the whole, are true.[/quote]

Glad you see that.

[quote]But don't claim she is innocent. To do that is to slap the victims of these vicious men of whom the Church's bridegroom said it would be better that they had never been born, on the face, and tell them their suffering is for naught![/quote]

You don't think that those who don't abuse children are innocent? Remember, we already clarified that you can't apply the actions of some to the whole group. So there's something wrong with claiming that those Catholics who are, in fact, innocent happen to be innocent? The Church is washed in the Blood of the Lamb. The Church is therefore pure by the grace of God in herself, but still being purified in her members. The Church is the Body of Christ. Do you say that the Body of Christ is not innocent? Christ is the head of the Church and has washed the Church, but her members are still dirty. The Body of Christ is clean, but the feet with which the Church continues on her journey pick up the dirt of sinners who cling to her in faith, hope, and love. "Whoever has bathed has no need except to have his feet washed, for he is clean all over; [b]so you are clean, but not all[/b]" (John 13:10). Our Lord washes the Church and declares her clean, but nonetheless points to Judas who is not clean. The Body of Christ that does not still walk the earth is the body of the saints, who are washed clean once and for all. Since the Church has been cleaned, there is no need to wash anything but the feet, those members of Christ's body who still journey on the road to heaven while living in a world of sin. Nonetheless, Christ declares the Church clean, but not all. Sin will continue on the part of her members.

God bless,

Micah

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='05 April 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1270482841' post='2086960']
Do you agree with the sexual abuse of children, domincansoul? Y/N
Do you agree it is right to cover up said abuse? Y/N

The Roman Catholic Church is [i]not innocent [/i]of wrongdoing - that is, if we take the actions of her clergy as representative of her on a whole. I'm sorry, I'm aware this is a Catholic forum and my words will not be taken well, but it is naive and silly to claim that the Church, wherever coverups have taken place, has done anything other than [i]acted wrongly[/i].

Claim she is repentant. Claim she is working hard to right the wrongs she has done. To the Roman Church's credit, these things, on the whole, are true.

But don't claim she is innocent. To do that is to slap the victims of these vicious men of whom the Church's bridegroom said it would be better that they had never been born, on the face, and tell them their suffering is for naught!
[/quote]

You seem to be confusing the Church with Her leadership. The Church is perfect, Her leadership is not. That is something the media confuses. The media also confuses papal infallibility, assuming that Catholics believe the Pope is perfect/never wrong.