Muslims Try To Pray In Spanish Cathedral

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 April 2010 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1271022554' post='2091119']
Is it also rude to tell a pagan that they are worshiping the Devil, even if they do not realize it?
[/quote]


If you bump into a bunch of Muslims on the street, or in a cathedral, or anywhere casual like that,
yeah, its rude and uncalled for for you to tell them you think they worship the Devil.

If you are sitting down with a group of Muslims to have an intellectual discussion/debate about religion and you mention as part of your larger argument, your views about the possiblity that Mohammad's experiences were supernatural but not from God, then ..... no, it would okay for you to tell them. Although saying they are "devil worshipers" would be over the top, I think.

See the difference? One is a confrontational, aggressive "ambush," while the other is an exchange of views in an atmosphere of mutual respect where each side is prepared to address each other's salvos.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Lilllabettt

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='11 April 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1271023077' post='2091127']
If you bump into a bunch of Muslims on the street, or in a cathedral, or anywhere casual like that,
yeah, its rude and uncalled for for you to tell them you think they worship the Devil.

If you are sitting down with a group of Muslims to have an intellectual discussion/debate about religion and you mention as part of your larger argument, your views about the possiblity that Mohammad's experiences were supernatural but not from God, then ..... no, it would okay for you to tell them. Although saying they are "devil worshipers" would be over the top, I think.

See the difference? One is a confrontational, aggressive "ambush," while the other is an exchange of views in an atmosphere of mutual respect where each side is prepared to address each other's salvos.
[/quote]

I would hope that everyone here knows the meaning of "common sense" and uses it on a day to day basis.

[Lilllabettt]

Alas, common sense is no longer common.

Among Christians, Muslims or Jews.

Which is why you have this story happening in the first place.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='11 April 2010 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1271021273' post='2091106']
Why are you assuming I don't know Arabic?[/quote]
Probably because you weren't wearing a burka.

Defenders of Islam have informed me that one must know Arabic to interpret the Koran or other Islamic writings, and that English translations are worthless.

[quote]I study the Middle East. They speak Arabic there. And French, in the Maghreb.[/quote]
Outstanding. Perhaps you can use your expertise to correctly translate the Koran passages St. Therese provided.

[quote]So now we are dumping on Muslims [u]and[/u] Episcopalians. Wow. Some time we have got to get that list of religions Catholics hate alphabetized.
[/quote]
I've been dumping on Episcopalians for a long time.

Un-pc as it may be to say so, there's only One True Faith, and many false religions.

[HisChildForever]

Although anyone wishing to engage a Muslim in theological debate or conversation should be careful. You may get hauled off to court for religious discrimination.

[quote]A blow for free speech was struck by the courts yesterday as the case against two Christian hoteliers accused of insulting a Muslim guest was thrown out.

Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang were hauled into the dock after a white British convert to Islam complained they had called the prophet Mohammed 'a warlord' and told her that Muslim women were oppressed.

They saw their family-run business brought to its knees as they found themselves at the centre of an unprecedented investigation into what was deemed a religiously aggravated hate crime against 60-year-old Ericka Tazi.

But yesterday, after a prosecution costing some £20,000, their names were cleared as a judge said the case flew in the face of the right to freedom of religious expression. Christian groups said the decision to try the Vogelenzangs meant the couple faced becoming convicted criminals for standing up for their beliefs.[/quote]

Lawl moment,

[quote]What Mrs Tazi was probably unaware of is that the Vogelenzangs had adopted five children, of whom one was a Muslim, and had put their names forward to foster other Muslim youngsters.[/quote]

Hooray for peaceful protests,

[quote] Mike Judge, a spokesman for the Christian Institute, said: 'Important issues of religious freedom and free speech were at stake in this case. 'We have detected a worrying tendency in public bodies to misapply the law in a way that seems to sideline Christianity more than other faiths.

'People see the police standing by when Muslim demonstrators take to the streets in this country holding some pretty bloodthirsty placards, but at the same time come down hard on two Christians having a debate over breakfast.'[/quote]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234680/It-victory-free-speech-did-breakfast-insult-Muslims-faith-case-come-court.html

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Socrates' date='11 April 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1271015295' post='2091047']
. . .

But it should go without saying that the ceremonies of a false apostate religion that denies Christ have no place in a building consecrated to the Most Holy Sacrifice of Christ's Mass and other sacred Christian worship.

That has nothing to do with civility, but with giving places consecrated to Christ due honor.
We're talking about a cathedral here, not a da[color="#000000"]m[/color]n bed-and-breakfast![/quote]
Well said! If a non-Christian ritual were to take place in a Church, the building in question - according to the teaching of the Eastern Fathers and the ritual books of the Byzantine Church (see [i]The Great Book of Needs[/i], volume 2) - would have to be reconsecrated to the right worship (ορθο δόξα) of the Triune God.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Socrates' date='11 April 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1271023344' post='2091131']

Defenders of Islam have informed me that one must know Arabic to interpret the Koran or other Islamic writings, and that English translations are worthless.


Outstanding. Perhaps you can use your expertise to correctly translate the Koran passages St. Therese provided.
[/quote]


Muslims say that translating the Qur'an is like translating poetry; that it is in fact, impossible to do it justice in another language.

For non believers, doing the majesty of the text "justice" is less important than simple accuracy. For that, some translations are good, some are bad.


[quote]65:1 O Prophet, when you[and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden.[/quote]

Let's look at these verses in context. Sura 65 is about divorce; not marriage. It revolves around determining whether or not a woman is pregnant. (It was against the law for a Muslim to divorce a pregnant woman.)

[b]if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet[/b]

If you think your wife is post-menopausal, wait 3 months anyway to see if she is pregnant.


The phrase "yet" here does not mean "yet, in her whole life," but "yet, in her regular monthly cycle." In other words, your wife's period is late. You should wait three months and see if she may be pregnant; after which point it will be obvious whether she is or she isn't.

If she isn't pregnant after 3 months, then she may be divorced. If she is pregnant, then she cannot be divorced until 3 months "after" her pregnancy (when its clear whether shes pregnant again or not.)

the entire context of the Sura indicates that its dealing with situations where a woman could have become pregnant ... a man married to a premenstrual girl would not have to worry about whether she as pregnant. Her situation would not be addressed in this section, which is about preventing the divorce of pregnant women.

Remember that part of the Bible where it says Mary did not have relations with her husband "until" she gave birth to Jesus? Well the "until" does not mean she had relations w/ her husband after she gave birth to Jesus. It's an archaic linguistic pattern.

Here's another translation of these verses which makes the meaning clearer to modern ears:

[quote]65:4 As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him[/quote]

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 April 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1271022390' post='2091117']
Speaking in general here,

We are called to love our enemies, but we are not called to be naive. Nor does God expect us to ignore evil for fear of offending others. [i]I used to look at the world through rose-colored glasses up until a couple of years ago. Reality is reality.[/i]
[/quote]

Maybe this is why Christians and Catholics are in the situation we are in....

[HisChildForever]

So how do we know that your translation above is good?

[quote]the entire context of the Sura indicates that its dealing with situations where a woman could have become pregnant ... a man married to a premenstrual girl would not have to worry about whether she as pregnant. Her situation would not be addressed in this section, which is about preventing the divorce of pregnant women.[/quote]

Yes, and there is nothing wrong with marrying a pre-menstrual girl!

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='11 April 2010 - 11:10 AM' timestamp='1270995043' post='2090911']
[indent]4:34 . . . [color="#ff0000"]If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, [b]then hit them[/b]. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.[/color] (Haleem, emphasis added)

[/indent]
[/quote]


This is one of the more light-hearted verses in the Qur'an. I have been told it sometimes elicits chuckles when it is read. If you think your wife's being highhanded, remind her about the teaching of God. (In other words, nag her) if they still don't listen, ignore them in bed. (In other words, withhold sex.) "Then hit them." ooooo "hit them!" that's abuse, right?

No.

The "hit" here is properly translated ... "slap on the wrist." It is supposed to be a very slight physical correction. I have even seen it rendered "lightly spank." Have you ever seen a man or wife smack each other's backsides?

Edited April 11, 2010 by Lilllabettt

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 April 2010 - 07:48 PM' timestamp='1271026121' post='2091162']
So how do we know that your translation above is good?



Yes, and there is nothing wrong with marrying a pre-menstrual girl!
[/quote]

I did not say it was wrong or right to marry a premenstrual girl, or whether Islam teaches such a thing.

I said that the subject of pre-menstrual brides is not touched upon in the passage St. Therese quoted, nor should it have been, since it is only concerned with divorce procedures for women who may be pregnant.

You can take my translation or leave it.

I'm confident, given the context, that's what it says.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='12 April 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1271023236' post='2091130']
Alas, common sense is no longer common.

Among Christians, Muslims or Jews.

Which is why you have this story happening in the first place.
[/quote]

Many people with Catholic next to their handle have not fully understood the idea of Christianity.

Christ associated with all people and never spoke down to them. Maybe he engaged in verbal jousting with Pharisees and others, as some people attempt to do here, but never malicious or plain insulting and rude remarks and accusations. Christ offers love and the opportunity to become Christian, he healed many of their afflictions. You will never accomplish this with blatant hateful attacks. Not that it appears that that is the goal of some people here anyway. They seem to have no concern for the reputation of Jesus Christianity. Their attacks of hatred which serve no purpose but to spread through the naive people who are ready to listen to hate and false witness is more important than what people think of Jesus and his promise. How could they possibly consider that they serve Christ? Certain Anti-theists will love their remarks because it discredits the entire religion and its commandments. I know for a fact that there are numerous people who will not accept Christianity or main stream religion because of blatant contradiction by many of its alleged members as witnessed here.

[quote]I'm a Catholic Supremacist and a Christian Supremacist and proud of it! (As should all Catholics be)[/quote]
All through Jesus teachings are the emphasis of humbleness and humility and love and charity for those unfortunate to have not yet found him. If you believe this you do not fully understand some of Christianities core. The statement has the ring of pride to it, which we should avoid. I suggest you retain the word proud but delete supremacist. Maybe it has truth but it is not something we advertise.

[quote]Muslims are more than welcome to quietly and respectfully sit in the pews during the mass or other prayers. They are also welcome to join in the Christian prayer if the Spirit so moves them.
[/quote]
You show true Christianity here hopefully there is much more.

[quote]But it should go without saying that the ceremonies of a false apostate religion that denies Christ have no place in a building consecrated to the Most Holy Sacrifice of Christ's Mass and other sacred Christian worship.[/quote]
They revere Jesus but are just unbelieving in who he really is. Not exactly the same as you describe and there are many Catholics who don't know Jesus either. I'm pretty sure that there is nothing wrong with revering Allah, Jesus or anyone in a Church except evil because that's what it is there for. And we shouldn't be judging what they quietly do in any event.


And HCF if you do not wish me to address you as 'Dear' which is a form of polite address then do not refer to me by my 'Christian' name unless you wish to accept me as your friend and brother in Christ.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='12 April 2010 - 09:48 AM' timestamp='1271022535' post='2091118']
allowing [b]idolatrous[/b] worship in a building consecrated to adoration of the Holy Trinity.
[/quote]

?????

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='12 April 2010 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1271025087' post='2091146']
If a non-Christian ritual were to take place in a Church, the building in question - according to the teaching of the Eastern Fathers and the ritual books of the Byzantine Church (see [i]The Great Book of Needs[/i], volume 2) - would have to be reconsecrated to the right worship (ορθο δόξα) of the Triune God.
[/quote]

Then maybe we should reconsecrate them very regularly. The Church doors are no barrier to evil, that's why Jesus got mad and chased people out of the temple. If they were a barrier many of us would not be able to attend Mass.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='11 April 2010 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1271026556' post='2091168']
This is one of the more light-hearted verses in the Qur'an. I have been told it sometimes elicits chuckles when it is read. If you think your wife's being highhanded, remind her about the teaching of God. (In other words, nag her) if they still don't listen, ignore them in bed. (In other words, withhold sex.) "Then hit them." ooooo "hit them!" that's abuse, right?

No.

The "hit" here is properly translated ... "slap on the wrist." It is supposed to be a very slight physical correction. I have even seen it rendered "lightly spank." Have you ever seen a man or wife smack each other's backsides?
[/quote]

I cannot honestly believe you are defending the Islamic teaching that a man can physically chastise his wife.

[HisChildForever]

Also, do you realize what this teaching suggests?

The husband is not being called to make amends with his wife. He is not being called to sacrifice for her. No, he is being called to carry a grudge with her. Instead of trying to make amends or come to some kind of compromise, he is told to withhold the marital act - the most intimate physical form of self-expression and love between spouses. He is told to slap her instead of kiss her.

[Apotheoun]

The primary focus of Sura 65 is not pregnancy, but ritual purity. It is forbidden to divorce a woman while she is ritually impure (i.e., menstruating).