Muslims Try To Pray In Spanish Cathedral

[organwerke]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='11 April 2010 - 12:21 AM' timestamp='1270938089' post='2090639']
Islamic prayers:



Clearly these people are blood thirsty and violent.
Clearly they worship the Devil.
Clearly Almighty God would be filled with wrath and displeasure, should any of these prayers be addressed to Him by a Muslim in a Catholic Cathedral.

The problem these days is the incivility of people. Muslims are guests in a Catholic church, and so you'd think they'd be extremely considerate, being careful to treat the situation very delicately, and not burden their hosts with any unnecessary requests. Christians, you'd think, would be striving to make their guests feel welcome and comfortable, anticipating their needs and fulfilling them as far as they possibly can.

But civility is a lost art these days. And so to avoid being taken advantage of, hosts and guests act like perfect pigs.

Oh well.

You know the Episcopalian cathedral here has a sign out that says "All are Welcome."
[/quote]


Yes, the problem is also the incivility of people, but not only.
First of all, there are historical problems.
When Muslims occupied Cordoba in 771 in that place there was a christian church.
At the beginning the curch was used BOTH for catholic and muslim prayer. Then, the emir destroyed the christian church and built the mosque.
In 1236 Cordoba returned to Spain and the mosque, built where there was the former dostroyed church, became a christian cathedral.

Then, when Muslims conquered Bizantium they transformed the most important Basilica of Eastern Christianity (and many other important churches) in a mosque, and this Basilica and these churches are still used only for Islamic cult while, in modern times, it would be logical that these sacred places returned to Eastern Christianity that suffered many damages during the centuries (and still suffer) from Islamic conquer.
And while for example Pope John Paul II apologized for the sins committed by Christians through the centuries (as for example during Crusades etc.) NO official Islamic authority has never apologized for the numerous sufferings Christians have endured and still endure because of islamic ideology.
These are not details.
Then, in the specific case, we know Spain suffered an Islamic terroristic attack some years ago that caused several civilian deaths.
This of course doens't mean that all muslims are violent etc., but it is obvious that THIS request is completely inopportune.
Then there are theological problems, because a consacrated church can't allow a cult that isn't christian, especially when in this church there is the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

This doesn't mean that we have to be insensitive towards muslim's requests, but we can't either be blind when considering the reality, and, also, we must be wise judging every single situation.

For example, if Muslims have a lecit need to have a place where they can [u]peacefully[/u] pray, they can look for a public room, with all the documents they need to act according to the laws of the country in which they live.

Again I think it is important to distinguish between considering Islam and Muslims.
I know that Islam contains some elements in common with us, as the prayer you quoted shows.
I also knew some albanian muslims who attended catholic functions with the nuns, praying in the church, praying as christians. I think they were really respectful muslims who were able to worship God in the catholic manner when they were in a catholic church.
But it is a matter of fact that the majority of Islam, and, especially -and this is the most important fact- the MAIN ISALMIC OFFICIAL AUTHORITIES still follow a religion that is very often violent, aggressive and oppressive.
I myself for example know muslim girls that complaint a lot about their religion because they are very little considered in their families in comparison with men etc.
I can't deny the reality because this happens TOO often to be considered an exception.
These are not bad families, very often these parents really cares for their daughters, but nevertheless they follow a cultural model that doesn't recognize the dignity and the importance of the single person as Christian faith does.
Even if we can find also good apsects in islamic religion THIS is the reality that prevails all over the islamic world.
But, at the same time, I know also Muslims in my country who are badly considered ONLY because they are strangers, because they are of another religion (in my country that is mainly catholic). I know muslims workers who are exploited and so it is clear that every situation is different from another and you can see also muslims oppressed in western countries.
And, of course, you can see MANY Christians too who suffer a lot in Islamic countries!

I think that wisdom and common sense are basic when dealing with these subjects.
I strongly believe that we should have a dialogue with every person in this world.
But dialogue doesn't mean that I have to renounce my faith and my rights to satisfy others' expectations.
Dialogue means that even if we have differents beliefs we can live in peace together and be respectful towards each other.

Edited April 11, 2010 by organwerke

[Saint Therese]

[i]Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do notturn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his backto them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath ofGod and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)[/i][i]"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shallreign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)[/i]

[i]"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliateby breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)[/i]

[i]"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God willchastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victoryover them..." (Surah 9:12-)[/i]

[b][i]"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosquesof God..." (Surah 9:17)[/i][/b]

[i]"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jewsand Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued."(Surah 9:27-)[/i]

[i]"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the trueFaith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much theidolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)[/i]

[i]"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace youby other men." (Surah 9:37-)[/i]

[i]"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and dealrigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)[/i]

[i]"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmlywith them." (Surah 9:121-)[/i]

[i]"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless tothe unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)[/i]

[i]"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)[/i][i]
[/i][i]
[/i]

Edited April 11, 2010 by Saint Therese

[Saint Therese]

[indent]4:34 . . . [color="#ff0000"]If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, [b]then hit them[/b]. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.[/color] (Haleem, emphasis added)

[/indent]
The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

[indent]65:1 [color="#ff0000"]O Prophet, when you[and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribedwaiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And ifyou are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired ofmenstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is threemonths, and [b]the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet.[/b] As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden.[/color] (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

[/indent]

Edited April 11, 2010 by Saint Therese

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='10 April 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1270937496' post='2090636']
[b]The Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Second Vatican Council ([i]Lumen Gentium[/i] 16).[/b]

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one, merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind."

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."


[b]Pope John Paul II, [i]Address at Omayyad Mosque[/i] (2001)[/b]

"It is important that Muslims and Christians continue to explore philosophical and theological questions together, in order to come to a more objective and comprehensive knowledge of each others’ religious beliefs. Better mutual understanding will surely lead, at the practical level, to a new way of presenting our two religions not in opposition, as has happened too often in the past, but in partnership for the good of the human family...
For all the times that Muslims and Christians have offended one another, we need to seek forgiveness from the Almighty and to offer each other forgiveness. Jesus teaches us that we must pardon others’ offences if God is to pardon us our sins (cf. Mt 6:14)."
[/quote]

i think the key words are those who try with their hearts "to seek GOD with a sincere heart, moved by grace, and try in their actions to do His will...may achieve salvation...."
where in islam are these points taught???

also, the Pope asks us to "keep exploring" each other's religions...for a better understanding of each other, and for better relations...i think few muslims respect us...and this story proves that...

and the more I learn and research and read about islam, the more i hate what i see...now don't misunderstand me...i don't hate muslims...and it looks like the Pope and catechism are [i]reflecting on the persons[/i], [i]not the religion[/i]...

also, Pope John Paul and the Catholic Church teaches that anything that proposes murdering those who don't believe the way we do is not lawful or just...so...why would they justify another "religion's" belief to do just that as lawful and worthy of our respect???

Edited April 11, 2010 by dominicansoul

[Socrates]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='10 April 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1270936897' post='2090623']
Well now, we're criticizing a religion so racist isn't the right word. Be precise!

Some variation on supremacist might work better. Catholic Supremacist, Christian Supremacist. You could go with Islamophobe but that's so...trite, don't you think?
[/quote]
I'm a Catholic Supremacist and a Christian Supremacist and proud of it! (As should all Catholics be)

But, yeah, as I've noted elsewhere, "racist" is the catch-all word of choice for liberals to use against anyone who disagrees with them.

[Selah]

The fact that they tried to pray to Allah in a sacred place for Catholics to pray to Jesus is upsetting. Certain things you just don't do, in the name of respect and common decency. Hell, I assume my Hindu friend would be pretty annoyed at me if I barged into her temple and started praying the Our Father.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='11 April 2010 - 10:06 AM' timestamp='1270994792' post='2090906']
[i]Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do notturn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his backto them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath ofGod and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)[/i][i]"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shallreign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)[/i]

[i]"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliateby breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)[/i]

[i]"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God willchastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victoryover them..." (Surah 9:12-)[/i]

[b][i]"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosquesof God..." (Surah 9:17)[/i][/b]

[i]"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jewsand Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued."(Surah 9:27-)[/i]

[i]"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the trueFaith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much theidolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)[/i]

[i]"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace youby other men." (Surah 9:37-)[/i]

[i]"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and dealrigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)[/i]

[i]"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmlywith them." (Surah 9:121-)[/i]

[i]"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless tothe unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)[/i]

[i]"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)[/i][i]
[/i][i]
[/i]
[/quote]
You don't know Arabic, so those quotes are meaningless.

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='10 April 2010 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1270938089' post='2090639']
Islamic prayers:[/quote]
You don't know Arabic, so those quotes are meaningless.

[quote]Clearly these people are blood thirsty and violent.
Clearly they worship the Devil.
Clearly Almighty God would be filled with wrath and displeasure, should any of these prayers be addressed to Him by a Muslim in a Catholic Cathedral.

The problem these days is the incivility of people. Muslims are guests in a Catholic church, and so you'd think they'd be extremely considerate, being careful to treat the situation very delicately, and not burden their hosts with any unnecessary requests. Christians, you'd think, would be striving to make their guests feel welcome and comfortable, anticipating their needs and fulfilling them as far as they possibly can.

But civility is a lost art these days. And so to avoid being taken advantage of, hosts and guests act like perfect pigs.

Oh well.
[/quote]
Muslims are more than welcome to quietly and respectfully sit in the pews during the mass or other prayers. They are also welcome to join in the Christian prayer if the Spirit so moves them.

But it should go without saying that the ceremonies of a false apostate religion that denies Christ have no place in a building consecrated to the Most Holy Sacrifice of Christ's Mass and other sacred Christian worship.

That has nothing to do with civility, but with giving places consecrated to Christ due honor.
We're talking about a cathedral here, not a beaver dam bed-and-breakfast!

(And I think Muslims understand this concept. You can bet your burka they wouldn't be down with a mass being celebrated in a mosque.)

[quote]You know the Episcopalian cathedral here has a sign out that says "All are Welcome."
[/quote]
Too bad we can't be like those wonderful enlightened Episcopalians!
Then we could host a groovy Interfaith Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/Wiccan/Neo-Odinist hoe-down!

Edited April 11, 2010 by Socrates

[Winchester]

friggin buttons. Accidental -.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote]You don't know Arabic, so those quotes are meaningless.[/quote]

Why are you assuming I don't know Arabic? I study the Middle East. They speak Arabic there. And French, in the Maghreb.



[quote]Too bad we can't be like those wonderful enlightened Episcopalians![/quote]

So now we are dumping on Muslims [u]and[/u] Episcopalians. Wow. Some time we have got to get that list of religions Catholics hate alphabetized.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 April 2010 - 10:46 AM' timestamp='1270997192' post='2090931']
i think the key words are those who try with their hearts "to seek GOD with a sincere heart, moved by grace, and try in their actions to do His will...may achieve salvation...."
where in islam are these points taught???

also, the Pope asks us to "keep exploring" each other's religions...for a better understanding of each other, and for better relations...i think few muslims respect us...and this story proves that...

and the more I learn and research and read about islam, the more i hate what i see...now don't misunderstand me...i don't hate muslims...and it looks like the Pope and catechism are [i]reflecting on the persons[/i], [i]not the religion[/i]...

also, Pope John Paul and the Catholic Church teaches that anything that proposes murdering those who don't believe the way we do is not lawful or just...so...why would they justify another "religion's" belief to do just that as lawful and worthy of our respect???
[/quote]

Yes. I also fail to see how the words of Pope John Paul II hold more weight than the violent writings in Islamic holy texts and the example set by Muhammad.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Love your enemies. Return good for evil. I saw the essential meaning of the quotes as having to do with this. Also of resisting unchristian attitudes of hostility, vindictiveness and finger pointing.

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/variosity/agca.jpg[/IMG]

That dude shot and nearly killed Pope John Paul II. John Paul II forgave him and even worked to have him pardoned and released.

[i]But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you.[/i]

Wouldn't it be neat if such things characterized the general behavior of Christians in the world? I like to daydream about this at least.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 April 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1271021436' post='2091109']
Yes. I also fail to see how the words of Pope John Paul II hold more weight than the violent writings in Islamic holy texts and the example set by Muhammad.
[/quote]


Um ... because he's the Pope. And knows a lot about religion, and junk. But you know something he doesn't, right?

I don't think Muslims should pray in a Catholic cathedral.

It's really rude of them to even ask, let alone insist

But its equally rude for Catholics to say "no way! You worship Satan!" etc.

How about "I'm sorry, but that is not our custom, please understand; can we help you find someplace more suitable, etc."

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='11 April 2010 - 05:41 PM' timestamp='1271022112' post='2091113']
Love your enemies. Return good for evil. I saw the essential meaning of the quotes as having to do with this. Also of resisting unchristian attitudes of hostility, vindictiveness and finger pointing.

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/variosity/agca.jpg[/IMG]

That dude shot and nearly killed Pope John Paul II. John Paul II forgave him and even worked to have him pardoned and released.

[i]But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you.[/i]

Wouldn't it be neat if such things characterized the general behavior of Christians in the world? I like to daydream about this at least.
[/quote]

Speaking in general here,

We are called to love our enemies, but we are not called to be naive. Nor does God expect us to ignore evil for fear of offending others. I used to look at the world through rose-colored glasses up until a couple of years ago. Reality is reality.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='11 April 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1271022112' post='2091113']
Love your enemies. Return good for evil. I saw the essential meaning of the quotes as having to do with this. Also of resisting unchristian attitudes of hostility, vindictiveness and finger pointing.

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/variosity/agca.jpg[/IMG]

That dude shot and nearly killed Pope John Paul II. John Paul II forgave him and even worked to have him pardoned and released.

[i]But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you.[/i]

Wouldn't it be neat if such things characterized the general behavior of Christians in the world? I like to daydream about this at least.
[/quote]
Yes . . . Christ told us to forgive those who harm us, but that is not the same thing as allowing idolatrous worship in a building consecrated to adoration of the Holy Trinity.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='11 April 2010 - 05:42 PM' timestamp='1271022124' post='2091114']
Um ... because he's the Pope. And knows a lot about religion, and junk. But you know something he doesn't, right?[/quote]

When it comes to Islam, I tend to look at Islam.

[quote] I don't think Muslims should pray in a Catholic cathedral.

It's really rude of them to even ask, let alone insist

But its equally rude for Catholics to say "no way! You worship Satan!" etc.

How about "I'm sorry, but that is not our custom, please understand; can we help you find someplace more suitable, etc."
[/quote]

Is it also rude to tell a pagan that they are worshiping the Devil, even if they do not realize it?