Muslims Try To Pray In Spanish Cathedral

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='JustJump' date='09 April 2010 - 11:50 AM' timestamp='1270828220' post='2089958']
Curious, why do you feel that Muslims expect the West to accommodate them?
[/quote]

Watch the news. Read the newspapers. Muslims love to cry "religious discrimination" when there is none, and because of our politically correct society - which panders to Islam, by the way - they pretty much get whatever they want. They know the system and use it to their advantage. Their purpose is to institute Sharia Law and convert non-Muslims.

[HisChildForever]

Here is a rather straight-forward example.

[quote] All over the country, mosques are springing up like mushrooms. Some of them merely serve the fast-growing Muslim population, but many offer a pulpit to Islamist preachers. The trouble is that non-Muslims are not usually welcome to come and listen, and so it is hard to know which mosques are potential sources of trouble.

A few months ago, many people were alerted to this problem by the TV program "Undercover Mosque," in which reporters for the documentary series "Dispatches" secretly filmed radical preachers. Broadcast at prime time on the Channel Four network, the film painted an alarming picture of the jihadi sermons that imams have been preaching in some of the most important mosques in Britain. This column quoted some of the incendiary material at the time.

[b]Following the broadcast, the West Midlands police force asked the program makers of "Dispatches" to let them see the footage to determine whether or not the material amounted to incitement to commit acts of terrorism.[/b]

[b][u]But the police investigation of the jihadist preachers quickly turned into a kind of inquisition directed against the program makers.[/b][/u] The case was passed to the Crown Prosecution Service, which made extraordinary allegations against the "Dispatches" team. [b][u]The editors of the documentary were accused of distorting the sermons by taking short extracts out of context.[/b][/u]

[b][u]Channel Four, the most liberal of the major network broadcasters, was threatened with prosecution for hate speech — an especially damaging allegation for this corporation, which (like the BBC) is publicly owned but (unlike the BBC) funds itself commercially.[/b][/u]

In the end, the prosecution did not go ahead, but not before the networks and press had been thoroughly intimidated. It would be a brave press executive who would dare to send undercover reporters into the mosques now.[/quote]

Most appalling,

[quote] At least the pre-emptive cringe, to which I referred in last week's column, has not gone quite as far in Britain as in Holland, where the Catholic Bishop of Breda, Martinus Muskens, has just invited Christians to address God as "Allah" for the sake of "harmonious living." "Allah is a very beautiful word for God," Mr. Muskens told viewers on Dutch TV. "Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will call God ‘Allah'?"[/quote]

http://www.nysun.com/opinion/islamization-of-europe/61166/

[Nihil Obstat]

Wow, that second one really is rather appalling. Who is this Martinus Muskens?? I hope for everyone's sake that this was taken way out of context by the media.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='JustJump' date='09 April 2010 - 11:50 AM' timestamp='1270828220' post='2089958']
-Curious, why do you feel that Muslims expect the West to accommodate them?[/quote]
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7232661.stm"]Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'[/url]
Can you imagine an analogous statement from a leader of, say, the Wahhabist Islamic sect in Saudi Arabia?

[quote name='JustJump' date='09 April 2010 - 11:50 AM' timestamp='1270828220' post='2089958']-Second, what good will it do to wait for them to let us pray in the Hagia Sophia? If two sides stand still refusing to budge, well then they're stuck there each waiting for the other to cave. What harm is there in letting them pray? I don't see how waiting for them to let us pray in the Hagia Sophia is very productive...[/quote]
So, *again*, it is the West that must budge. Pretty soon we're going to budge ourselves right off a cliff.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JustJump' date='08 April 2010 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1270781562' post='2089724']
I'm not big on all the PC croutons now a days either.

But to me it's a simply matter of treating others the way you want to be treated. I have no problem if a Muslim wanted to pray in a Cathedral. (I do agree that pulling out a mat and the likes is a bit much and that'd it be fine to ask them not to do that.)

But honestly I think it's ridiculus to say that Muslims worship satan. Sure there are extremists and fundamentalists out there, just like there are in every religion. And yes, currently I'd say there are a lot of extremists and fundamentalists in Islam, but they are not a majority. I think that needs to be kept in mind. Muslims believe in one God, the God of Abraham. They believe that Mohommad was the final prophet. I don't understand how that is worshipping satan? Any Muslim that hurts someone else, just like any Christian, in the name of God, is obviously not following God.
[/quote]
Muslims pray on a prayer mat, so asking them not to pull out their prayer mat is not an option. Muslims explicitly reject Jesus Christ as the son of God who happens to be PRESENT in our cathedral. Muslims beleive that Allah to be the author of all good and all evil, and the Koran specifically refers to killing non-muslims as acceptable. If they strictly follow the teachings of their religion violence is acceptable, so the "fundamentalists and extremists" as you call them are simply following the tenets of their religion. Some groups are moderate and spiritualize their beliefs into non-violence, just as many protestant groups water-down all the teachings of obedience in the Scriptures to mere suggestions, but that is not the general norm.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='02 April 2010 - 09:19 AM' timestamp='1270214362' post='2085490']
Why is this on the debate board?
[/quote]
Guess this belongs here after all

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' date='09 April 2010 - 03:05 PM' timestamp='1270836331' post='2090025']
Guess this belongs here after all
[/quote]
I don't see it as a debate, some people simply lack more info than others on the topic

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='09 April 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1270833615' post='2090007']
Wow, that second one really is rather appalling. Who is this Martinus Muskens?? I hope for everyone's sake that this was taken way out of context by the media.
[/quote]

It was not out of context.

You will see that he has certainly pleased the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

[b] A proposal by a Roman Catholic bishop in the Netherlands that people of all faiths refer to God as "Allah" is not sitting well with the Catholic community.

Tiny Muskens, an outgoing bishop who is retiring in a few weeks from the southern diocese of Breda, said God doesn't care what he is called.

"Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? ... What does God care what we call him? It is our problem," Muskens told Dutch television.

"I'm sure his intentions are good but his theology needs a little fine-tuning," said Father Jonathan Morris, a Roman Catholic priest based in Rome. Morris, a news analyst for FOX News Channel, also called the idea impractical.

"Words and names mean things," Morris said. "Referring to God as Allah means something."

Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington, D.C.-based Islamic civil liberties and advocacy group, backs the idea as a way to help interfaith understanding.


"It reinforces the fact that Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God," Hooper told FOXNews.com. "I don't think the name is as important as the belief in God and following God's moral principles. I think that's true for all faiths."

Christians who are Arabic speakers speak of Allah when they speak of God, Hooper added.

"There's not a theological leap to make on the part of Christians," Hooper said.

The Council of Islamic Organizations of Greater Chicago supports the idea.

“I think it will open up doors,” said Janaan Hashim, a spokeswoman for the group representing more than 400,000 Muslim Americans in the Chicago area. “Language is a man-made limitation. I think what God cares about is how we fulfill our purpose in life.”

The nation’s largest Catholic civil rights group says Catholics won't get behind the proposal.

“Bishop Martinus “Tiny” Muskens can pray to “Allah” all he wants, but only addlepated Catholics will follow his lead,” Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, said in a statement. “It is not a good sign when members of the Catholic hierarchy indulge in a fawning exchange with Muslims, or those of any other religion.”

Muskens spent eight years in Indonesia, where he said priests used the word "Allah" during Mass.

Muskens also has drawn attention for other ideas such as encouraging the hungry to steal bread and offering condoms to combat HIV and AIDS.[/b]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293394,00.html

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='09 April 2010 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1270835947' post='2090022']
Muslims pray on a prayer mat, so asking them not to pull out their prayer mat is not an option. Muslims explicitly reject Jesus Christ as the son of God who happens to be PRESENT in our cathedral. Muslims beleive that Allah to be the author of all good and all evil, and the Koran specifically refers to killing non-muslims as acceptable. If they strictly follow the teachings of their religion violence is acceptable, so the "fundamentalists and extremists" as you call them are simply following the tenets of their religion. Some groups are moderate and spiritualize their beliefs into non-violence, just as many protestant groups water-down all the teachings of obedience in the Scriptures to mere suggestions, but that is not the general norm.
[/quote]

YES. As an aside, I am sick of people claiming that the "fundamentalists and extremists" are "in the minority." [b][u]All[/b][/u] Muslims are called to believe exactly what you outlined.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 April 2010 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1270838573' post='2090053']
Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington, D.C.-based Islamic civil liberties and advocacy group, backs the idea as a way to help interfaith understanding.


"It reinforces the fact that Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God," Hooper told FOXNews.com. "I don't think the name is as important as the belief in God and following God's moral principles. I think that's true for all faiths."

Christians who are Arabic speakers speak of Allah when they speak of God, Hooper added.

"There's not a theological leap to make on the part of Christians," Hooper said.

The Council of Islamic Organizations of Greater Chicago supports the idea.

“I think it will open up doors,” said Janaan Hashim, a spokeswoman for the group representing more than 400,000 Muslim Americans in the Chicago area. “Language is a man-made limitation. I think what God cares about is how we fulfill our purpose in life.”
[/quote]
If it doesn't matter what we call "God," let's call "Allah" "God." Better yet, let's call "Allah" "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit."

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' date='09 April 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1270840360' post='2090075']
If it doesn't matter what we call "God," let's call "Allah" "God." Better yet, let's call "Allah" "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit."
[/quote]

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Allah is not our God. As Cmom pointed out, Allah created both good and evil (according to Islam). Allah is also one, not three in one, which any Muslim will be quick to point out.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 April 2010 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1270841033' post='2090078']
Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Allah is not our God. As Cmom pointed out, Allah created both good and evil (according to Islam). Allah is also one, not three in one, which any Muslim will be quick to point out.
[/quote]
What I was trying to say - badly, obviously - it's nonsense to assert that it doesn't matter what we call God. If we told a Muslim to call "Allah" "Jesus," he would obviously balk because the word "Jesus" conveys a universe of meaning that is at odds with what Muslims believe about "Allah."

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' date='09 April 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1270841833' post='2090084']
What I was trying to say - badly, obviously - it's nonsense to assert that it doesn't matter what we call God. If we told a Muslim to call "Allah" "Jesus," he would obviously balk because the word "Jesus" conveys a universe of meaning that is at odds with what Muslims believe about "Allah."
[/quote]

Okay, whew. Almost gave me a heart attack.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' date='09 April 2010 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1270841833' post='2090084']
What I was trying to say - badly, obviously - it's nonsense to assert that it doesn't matter what we call God. If we told a Muslim to call "Allah" "Jesus," he would obviously balk because the word "Jesus" conveys a universe of meaning that is at odds with what Muslims believe about "Allah."
[/quote]
I caught the humour.

[Mark of the Cross]

[url="http://www.quranicstudies.com/articles/peace-in-the-quran/does-the-quran-teach-violence.html"]Violence & the Quran[/url]

I did a search for violence in the Quran. There are biased sites for and against. The one above seems reasonably neutral and draws some parallels between the Bible & the Quran. Yes there are many passages in the Bible which can be biased to advocate violence. And certainly there is a case for it. Jesus said "offer your left cheek." "Give your cloak as well." A bit impractical if a drug crazed thug wants to stick you with his knife. And most Christians would agree that we should defend our faith if attacked. If someone wants to cut off our head we can't offer the other one because we don't have another. If someone wants to turn our Church into a gaming den then we will not offer out buildings as well. Of course we will defend it with blood if necessary. I still think Jesus would expect us to try peaceful means first. If that fails then we can resort to violence and then go to confession with a conscience clear that we tried our best.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='10 April 2010 - 05:59 AM' timestamp='1270835947' post='2090022']
Some groups are moderate and spiritualize their beliefs into non-violence,
[/quote]

They are able to do this because the quotes don't clearly advocate violence, they can be bent either way depending on what you want to see. The same can be done and often is with the Bible, unfortunately.

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 April 2010 - 07:23 AM' timestamp='1270841033' post='2090078']
Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Allah created both good and evil (according to Islam).
[/quote]

So did God, either directly or indirectly. God created everything. There is evil existing in creation therefore God created evil or at least the possibility of it depending on how you look at it.