Has Russia Been Properly Consecrated

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 07:39 PM' timestamp='1270078791' post='2084391']
Surveys of people in Russia indicate that about 80 to 90 percent of people believe in God, which is comparable with surveys in the United States. Church attendance in America, which has been in constant decline for more then 40 years, and Church attendance in Russia are again comparable. Church attendance in Russia is higher than in France, and many other Western countries.
[/quote]


Monthly Church attendance. Not weekly, monthly, is somewhere between 1 and 10%.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 March 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1270079111' post='2084395']
Monthly Church attendance. Not weekly, monthly, is somewhere between 1 and 10%.
[/quote]
Russia had 70 years of official atheism, what is America's excuse.

The Russian Orthodox Church has opened over 30,000 Churches in the last twenty years, and has ordained about 35,000 clergy, while also opening over 800 monasteries. What has the American Catholic Church done in that same time period?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1270078568' post='2084388']
The fact that the United States government is going to double the existing debt of 12.5 trillion dollars to around 25 tillion dollars in the next 6 to 8 years speaks volumes about government over-reaching its proper role within society. It is the United States that is on course to become a "communist" country, not Russia. Moreover, the United States is not what it once was, and Americans had better wake up to reality before the massive national debt, and the unfunded liabilities of federal social programs in excess of 107 trillion dollars, which at this point does not even count the massive socialist health care reform just passed by Congress, destroys our economy and our personal liberties at the same time. We have more than enough of our own problems to worry about, and Russia is certainly not one of them.

What will Americans do when the dollar is no longer the international standard currency? America needs to get its own house in order, whether we are talking about socialist government expansion, the economy, or the state of the Church in this country, which is far from healthy. Russia hasn't caused any of the problems that we are experiencing; instead, we have brought them upon ourselves.
[/quote]

I never, never, never ever even almost implied that Russia was causing any of America's problems. No one has said that as far as I can see. You're just back to your MO of making some asinine claim, bickering for a few posts, and then attacking strawmen that nobody argued for.

If you think that America is closer to embracing communism than Russia then you don't know a beaver dam thing about Russian politics. Neither country is going to embrace communism anytime soon, but Russia has a hell of a lot more warmth for communism and the good old days under Papa Jo, Хорошие дни, когда все было дешево и обильно! As one Borsch advertisement said. In this case "Хорошие дни" (the good days) refers to the days of communist rule.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1270079413' post='2084400']
Russia had 70 years of official atheism, what is America's excuse.[/QUOTE]

No excuse is needed. We are talking about comparative levels of religiosity, not who is morally culpable and who is not.

[QUOTE] What has the American Catholic Church done in that same time period?
[/quote]

Not seen levels of even morginal religious practice fall to almost non-existent levels?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 March 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1270079586' post='2084404']
I never, never, never ever even almost implied that Russia was causing any of America's problems. No one has said that as far as I can see.
[/quote]


The thread is about Russia spreading her errors . . . if she has not been properly consecrated! Are you drunk again?

Edited March 31, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Saint Therese]

I think what is happening to our country is a result of abortion and acceptance of immorality.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 07:12 PM' timestamp='1270077153' post='2084358']
Russia is undergoing a religious revival, while the United States is in the process of "constitutionally" embracing socialism.


All of these things can also be said about the United States.
[/quote]
From my reading, these things are worse in Russia (and worse than in most other countries, for that matter).
I'm not saying things are wonderful in the U.S. - I just find your view of Russia unduly rosy.
Russia may have no way to go but up, however, while America is on the edge of a huge decline unless it radically changes direction.

Btw, the current embracing of socialism is blatantly unconstitutional.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Socrates' date='31 March 2010 - 06:23 PM' timestamp='1270081402' post='2084421']
Btw, the current embracing of socialism is blatantly unconstitutional.
[/quote]
Which is why I put the word constitutionally in scare quotes.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Socrates' date='31 March 2010 - 06:23 PM' timestamp='1270081402' post='2084421']
From my reading, these things are worse in Russia (and worse than in most other countries, for that matter).
I'm not saying things are wonderful in the U.S. - I just find your view of Russia unduly rosy.
Russia may have no way to go but up, however, while America is on the edge of a huge decline unless it radically changes direction.
[/quote]
Not rosy at all. Russia has its problems, but it is not going to be spreading those problems around the world. America is the real danger. It is the United States that is promoting hedonistic behavior and immorality, not Russia.

Alas, I think Americans have too rosy a picture of the United States. We are a bankrupt country, both financially and morally, and the day of reckoning is approaching while most Americans place their heads in the sand.

[charleseherring]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 07:40 PM' timestamp='1270082405' post='2084428']
Not rosy at all. Russia has its problems, but it is not going to be spreading those problems around the world. America is the real danger. It is the United States that is promoting hedonistic behavior and immorality, not Russia.

Alas, I think Americans have too rosy a picture of the United States. We are a bankrupt country, both financially and morally, and the day of reckoning is approaching while most Americans place their heads in the sand.
[/quote]


i think my thread got hijacked... i never asked the state of america's colictive soul, i asked about the consecration of russia, if it happened or not, yes it has ramifications out side of that but the point is did it happen or not and how can i prove it happened, america is not as bad as you are making it sound btw, i fully belive that we can recover this country, God forbid that it takes a civil war, but if it does i know plenty who with sacrifice there lives for the greater good of righting this country.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.” — Thomas Jefferson

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='charleseherring' date='31 March 2010 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1270083557' post='2084436']
i think my thread got hijacked... i never asked the state of america's colictive soul, i asked about the consecration of russia, if it happened or not, yes it has ramifications out side of that but the point is did it happen or not and how can i prove it happened, america is not as bad as you are making it sound btw, i fully belive that we can recover this country, God forbid that it takes a civil war, but if it does i know plenty who with sacrifice there lives for the greater good of righting this country.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.” — Thomas Jefferson
[/quote]
It actually is not so much of a hijack of your thread, because the topic is connected to the secondary question in relation to the consecration of Russia, that is, that if it was not done Russia will spread its errors, but that is not likely to happen. America is responsible for the spread of more moral error than Russia. It is our culture that is truly sick.

God bless.

As far as the main point of the thread is concerned . . . I agree with Nihil's original post.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='31 March 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1270051046' post='2084056']
The Church says it was done, and I believe it was done, but I also don't believe it matters.
[/quote]

Edited April 1, 2010 by Apotheoun

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='31 March 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1270051046' post='2084056']
The Church says it was done, and I believe it was done, but I also don't believe it matters.
[/quote]

Do you believe in Fatima? You're not required to, but I don't really see any reason not to. If you do, it matters a lot.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1270069462' post='2084254']
There is a greater likelihood that the United States will become a socialist dictatorship than Russia return to communism. It is America that is embracing godlessness, not Russia.
[/quote]

*raises eyebrow* You do know we're talking about RUSSIA, right?

[quote name='Socrates' date='31 March 2010 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1270075210' post='2084316']
I admit I've never been to Russia, but from what I've read contemporary Russia sounds like a pretty godless place.
Not denying there's some good Christians there, but overall Russian society seems not so godly. Still heavily atheist and irreligious, with a lot of lawlessness, crime, and immorality. Among the world's highest abortion rates, rampant prostitution and drugs, etc.
[/quote]
This

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1270077007' post='2084356']
That's your opinion, which I find asinine. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_grin.gif[/img]
[/quote]

There wasn't a single opinion in his post. Russia is terribly secular, and is among the most corrupt and immoral places on the globe.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='31 March 2010 - 07:46 PM' timestamp='1270086376' post='2084462']
There wasn't a single opinion in his post. Russia is terribly secular, and is among the most corrupt and immoral places on the globe.
[/quote]
That is an opinion. America is terribly secular too, and that is an opinion.

God grant you many joyful years.

[charleseherring]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1270084147' post='2084439']
It actually is not so much of a hijack of your thread, because the topic is connected to the secondary question in relation to the consecration of Russia, that is, that if it was not done Russia will spread its errors, but that is not likely to happen. America is responsible for the spread of more moral error than Russia. It is our culture that is truly sick.

God bless.

As far as the main point of the thread is concerned . . . I agree with Nihil's original post.


[/quote]


i see your point, but, there has been no calls from mary to consecrate america to her so anything about how america is worse is a moot point

[Aloysius]

You don't have to call the Pope or the original visionary a liar to think it wasn't properly done. You simply have to suggest that they might be mistaken. I was never under the impression that Sister Lucia was in constant contact with Our Lady; it was her sense that she believed our lady's request had been fulfilled... but all she ever was was the messenger. To my knowledge, she never had a vision in which Our Lady said it had been fulfilled, so it was simply her personal opinion. Andf if it had been her request to consecrate russia, then by all means she could answer whether it was done as she wanted it to be done. but it wasn't, Our Lady asked her to ask the Pope to do it--as such, only Our Lady could really answer if the response was satisfactory.

The fact of the matter is they didn't simply and directly consecrate Russia. They consecrated the whole world including Russia. And the reason they didn't just get together and single out Russia--the country singled out by the message of Fatima itself--is because they were afraid of offending the communists and/or the Russian Orthodox. It is those motivations which make me think the consecration was not done in the full fidelity to the message that it could have been done in... and it doesn't make me a conspiracy nut to say that.

I was trying to think of a good analogy and I think this would be best... imagine you had done something wrong to someone and were told by a confessor to send them a note apologizing to them for it. Being clever, you decide to send a note to every single friend you have apologizing in general for anything you had ever done to them. did you fulfill the confessor's request? sure, but you covered it in enough ambiguity as to dillute the effectiveness of the action. so too, I believe with the consecration of the world, the Pope seriously dilluted the effectiveness of the action requested by Our Lady. it was meant to address a specific country because of a specific greviance we had with them, and yet we addressed the whole world for their general sinfulness... and that's why I don't think we'll really see a conversion of Russia as it ought to have been unless the consecration is done again, because we dilluted the effectiveness of the action by surrounding it by generalities. the consecration's not some magic formula for the conversion of russia, we're not casting a spell. though there are certainly aspects of Our Lady's intercessery power, I think that Our Lady wished the Church of Rome to take a stand against Russia in this spiritual way, and consecrating the world because of it's sinfulness doesn't exactly constitute the stand Our Lady wanted us to make. consecrating Russia because of her errors was the stand Our Lady was asking for.

now, the Church of Rome certainly stood up to Russia in many ways that led to the last fall of communism. but dark clouds are arising again in Russia, and the proscription of Our Lady for dealing with Russia when it spreads error around the world is to consecrate Russia to her. to consecrate just Russia, and to use that consecration to call out Russia on her errors; say that we are consecrating Russia to her Immaculate Heart because we are concerned by the errors it is spreading around the world.

and of course the debate only exists among those who believe in Fatima, because for those who don't (and it doesn't make them any less of a Catholic, they're free not to), it doesn't matter.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Aloysius