charleseherring Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 i dont know, but my gf and her family are part of a group of conspiricy theorist catholics.... (trust me its as strange as it sounds) and they go on and on about this, i know very little about it so whats you guys take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 it seems to me that a full fledged response faithful to the request of our lady of fatima would engage in a singular solitary act which did simply what Our Lady requested, no more and no less. it seems that surrounding the consecration of russia with a consecration of the whole world was a type of politicking which did not express a childlike faith and obedience to what Our Lady requested. it was like, sure, we'll consecrate russia, but since we don't want to make russia mad we'll just slip it in there while we're consecrating the whole world. sister lucia did say that it was consecrated... assuming you're referring to the types of conspiratorial people I think you are, you'd prolly get the response that either the real sister lucia was replaced by an imposter (wherein they will proceed to show you tons of photographs of the older/younger sister lucia side by side which due to different angles and lighting they can exploit whatever differences they can find to claim it was an imposter), or that she was coerced into saying that. whatever, those types of theories are loony IMO. however, though Sister Lucia was the original visionary to which Our Lady came, she is not an infallible interpretter of whether the visions have come to pass. She was given the message, given the command, but that doesn't mean she can perfectly tell us whether the command has been fulfilled. I personally have my wonderings and my doubts, and any Catholic who believes in Fatima is perfectly free to doubt these things and to wonder if the consecration to the whole world can really be said to have fulfilled the request. though communism has fallen, we can hardly say Russia has been truly converted... and we cannot even say she has stopped spreading her errors around the world. she seems from my perspective to be rebuilding her old communist apparatus... so who is to say? what are the fruits? seems to me we gave a half-hearted attempt by smothering the consecration of Russia into a consecration of the whole world... and in return it seems we got a very half-hearted conversion of Russia away from communisim. as you sew, so shall you reap... I think if it had been an explicit consecration to Russia only, we may have seen something amazing happen to Russia... but as it stands, Soviet Russia seems to have only had one or two decades of a setback... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 The Church says it was done, the visionary says it was done, and I am not inclined to call either one liars. There is no neat timeline dropped from heaven as to WHEN the conversion of Russia takes place, and God's time is not our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 The Church says it was done, and I believe it was done, but I also don't believe it matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 (edited) The Church says it was done, my bishop did it and said it was done, and similarly I am not inclined to call either liars, especially when they seem to have no particular motive to lie. However, I did go to high school with a guy who similarly was a conspiracy theorist like your girlfriend and her family. He never could really give an answer of why the Church, the visionary, and our bishop would lie though. Edited March 31, 2010 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charleseherring Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='31 March 2010 - 10:07 AM' timestamp='1270048047' post='2084022'] The Church says it was done, the visionary says it was done, and I am not inclined to call either one liars. There is no neat timeline dropped from heaven as to WHEN the conversion of Russia takes place, and God's time is not our own. [/quote] right and i agree but in there latest new letter they wrote "our blessed mother told father gobbi, as recorded in his book "to the priests our ladys beloved sons" on march 25 1984 right after pope jp2 consecrated the world to the IMH the consecration that the evil in the vatician wants us to belive was that consecration, QUOTE" before all i ask it (the consecration of russia to IHM) of Pope John II the first of my belived sons who on the occasion of this feast (annunciation) performed the consecration in a solemn manner after writing to the bishops of the world and inviting them to do so in union with him. Unfortunaltely the invitation was not welcome by all the bishops particular circumstances have not yet permitted the explicit consecrtation of russia which i have requested many times as i have already told you this consecration will be made to me when the bloody eventsare well on the way to actuality" every newsletter is like this, if anyone wants to read more, and help me bash my head against a wall in frustration, tracking down who said what and what quotes are real are almost as hard as talking to jehovah witnesses but at least they listen to the bible if nothing else.... these guys are a step away from sede vactisim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='31 March 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1270051046' post='2084056'] The Church says it was done, and I believe it was done, but I also don't believe it matters. [/quote] Ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='Aloysius' date='31 March 2010 - 03:35 AM' timestamp='1270028156' post='2083921'] it seems to me that a full fledged response faithful to the request of our lady of fatima would engage in a singular solitary act which did simply what Our Lady requested, no more and no less. it seems that surrounding the consecration of russia with a consecration of the whole world was a type of politicking which did not express a childlike faith and obedience to what Our Lady requested. it was like, sure, we'll consecrate russia, but since we don't want to make russia mad we'll just slip it in there while we're consecrating the whole world. sister lucia did say that it was consecrated... assuming you're referring to the types of conspiratorial people I think you are, you'd prolly get the response that either the real sister lucia was replaced by an imposter (wherein they will proceed to show you tons of photographs of the older/younger sister lucia side by side which due to different angles and lighting they can exploit whatever differences they can find to claim it was an imposter), or that she was coerced into saying that. whatever, those types of theories are loony IMO. however, though Sister Lucia was the original visionary to which Our Lady came, she is not an infallible interpretter of whether the visions have come to pass. She was given the message, given the command, but that doesn't mean she can perfectly tell us whether the command has been fulfilled. I personally have my wonderings and my doubts, and any Catholic who believes in Fatima is perfectly free to doubt these things and to wonder if the consecration to the whole world can really be said to have fulfilled the request. though communism has fallen, we can hardly say Russia has been truly converted... and we cannot even say she has stopped spreading her errors around the world. she seems from my perspective to be rebuilding her old communist apparatus... so who is to say? what are the fruits? seems to me we gave a half-hearted attempt by smothering the consecration of Russia into a consecration of the whole world... and in return it seems we got a very half-hearted conversion of Russia away from communisim. as you sew, so shall you reap... I think if it had been an explicit consecration to Russia only, we may have seen something amazing happen to Russia... but as it stands, Soviet Russia seems to have only had one or two decades of a setback... [/quote] I agree with this, and also believe that it matters a great deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 (edited) [quote name='goldenchild17' date='31 March 2010 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1270069142' post='2084253'] I agree with this, and also believe that it matters a great deal. [/quote] There is a greater likelihood that the United States will become a socialist dictatorship than Russia return to communism. It is America that is embracing godlessness, not Russia. Edited March 31, 2010 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 i think it was done by Pope John Paul II, but it should've been done back when the apparition was approved by the Church... but that's just what I wish, I don't hold any Pope or Bishop to this... I don't like all the conspiracy theorists, as there are a great many groups out there that tend to bash the Popes and the Bishops when it comes to this consecration... first off, the apparitions are a private revelation, and it is not obligated to put any belief in them...so, as far as obeying the directives of Our Lady, where do the Pope's and the Bishops' obligation lie? Certainly Our Lady knows this, and I don't assume she would expect that any bishop not feeling an obligation to it would be guilty of "disobedience..???" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='31 March 2010 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1270051046' post='2084056'] The Church says it was done, and I believe it was done, but I also don't believe it matters. [/quote] How does it not matter? The apparitions of Our Lady of fatima have had significant effects upon the world and the Church. Its like saying the lives of the saints dont matter because their not dogma. Praying the rosary doesnt matter, praying the Jesus prayer doesnt matter, wearing sacramentals doesnt matter because none of these are dogma. In my oppinion its illogical to say these things dont matter because they are not dogma. Lets say there is an oak tree in your backyard and you tell me "hey I have this nice oak tree in my backyard you wanna see it"? I respond "no, I dont beleive there is an oak tree in your backyard because its not a dogma..." Instead of saying Our Lady of Fatima and its event dont matter why not say that were not bound to believe it under pain of sin or we must be careful not to put our divine faith in these apparitions and what not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='31 March 2010 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1270072269' post='2084278'] How does it not matter? The apparitions of Our Lady of fatima have had significant effects upon the world and the Church. Its like saying the lives of the saints dont matter because their not dogma. Praying the rosary doesnt matter, praying the Jesus prayer doesnt matter, wearing sacramentals doesnt matter because none of these are dogma. In my oppinion its illogical to say these things dont matter because they are not dogma. Lets say there is an oak tree in your backyard and you tell me "hey I have this nice oak tree in my backyard you wanna see it"? I respond "no, I dont beleive there is an oak tree in your backyard because its not a dogma..." Instead of saying Our Lady of Fatima and its event dont matter why not say that were not bound to believe it under pain of sin or we must be careful not to put our divine faith in these apparitions and what not? [/quote] Ok, let me be more tactful and politic. Considering the apparitions are not dogma, and we are not bound as Catholics to believe it, I believe each and every person is free to accept or reject the necessity of the consecration of Russia. While such prayers and blessings are without a doubt a positive influence, I do not believe that it is central or necessary to the One Holy and Apostolic Church that they be performed. Furthermore, I believe it is more detrimental to an individual's faith to accept a false apparition or prophecy than it is to reject a legitimate one. Considering that, I would err on the side of caution in accepting such events. In any case: the Church says Fatima happened, and I believe it happened. The Church says Russia was consecrated, and I believe it was consecrated. The Church does not say the consecration was necessary, and I do not believe it was necessary. As an aside, your example about the oak tree is a very poor one, and I'm not even going to bother responding to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='31 March 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1270072713' post='2084282'] Ok, let me be more tactful and politic. Considering the apparitions are not dogma, and we are not bound as Catholics to believe it, I believe each and every person is free to accept or reject the necessity of the consecration of Russia. While such prayers and blessings are without a doubt a positive influence, I do not believe that it is central or necessary to the One Holy and Apostolic Church that they be performed. Furthermore, I believe it is more detrimental to an individual's faith to accept a false apparition or prophecy than it is to reject a legitimate one. Considering that, I would err on the side of caution in accepting such events. In any case: the Church says Fatima happened, and I believe it happened. The Church says Russia was consecrated, and I believe it was consecrated. The Church does not say the consecration was necessary, and I do not believe it was necessary. As an aside, your example about the oak tree is a very poor one, and I'm not even going to bother responding to it. [/quote] Ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Can the word politic be used validly as an adjective? I think it can, but it's awkward to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='charleseherring' date='31 March 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1270056889' post='2084123'] right and i agree but in there latest new letter they wrote "our blessed mother told father gobbi, as recorded in his book "to the priests our ladys beloved sons" on march 25 1984 right after pope jp2 consecrated the world to the IMH the consecration that the evil in the vatician wants us to belive was that consecration, QUOTE" before all i ask it (the consecration of russia to IHM) of Pope John II the first of my belived sons who on the occasion of this feast (annunciation) performed the consecration in a solemn manner after writing to the bishops of the world and inviting them to do so in union with him. Unfortunaltely the invitation was not welcome by all the bishops particular circumstances have not yet permitted the explicit consecrtation of russia which i have requested many times as i have already told you this consecration will be made to me when the bloody eventsare well on the way to actuality" every newsletter is like this, if anyone wants to read more, and help me bash my head against a wall in frustration, tracking down who said what and what quotes are real are almost as hard as talking to jehovah witnesses but at least they listen to the bible if nothing else.... these guys are a step away from sede vactisim [/quote] Anytime someone calls Pope John Paul II a liar, they are swimming with the sharks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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