How Is It That A Person Can Oppose Abortion And Still Be Comfortable W

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='Presbylicious']I seem to recall that my Lord and Saviour honoured God, His Father by permitting His 'rights' to be violated - to death.

This is the example Christians should be following.[/quote]
[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='02 April 2010 - 03:56 AM' timestamp='1270205787' post='2085475']
On this we will disagree.
[/quote] You disagree that the Christian should follow the example of Christ? Seems a bit disingenuous.

Christ didn't kill His enemies with lightning bolts from the sky when His life was threatened. He died for them!

Edited April 2, 2010 by Presbylicious

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='02 April 2010 - 08:43 AM' timestamp='1270208625' post='2085479']
You disagree that the Christian should follow the example of Christ? Seems a bit disingenuous.

Christ didn't kill His enemies with lightning bolts from the sky when His life was threatened. He died for them!
[/quote]
I disagree with your conclusion that your answer is the correct one and I agree with mortify who said this, and I apologize I am very tired.

"The reality is determining whether a war is just is generally inaccessible to most people fighting, since one really needs an in-depth understanding of the numerous factors involved. In cases where one's conscience is uncertain of the justice of a war, one is permitted to fight regularly.

Now if one knows the war is unjust, and is still forced to fight, they still retain the *right* to defend themselves. Thus even in an unjust war a soldier can return fire and kill enemies that are attacking him. It's not "God honoring" if one permits another to violate their rights.

"

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='02 April 2010 - 05:22 AM' timestamp='1270210954' post='2085484']
It's not "God honoring" if one permits another to violate their rights.

"
[/quote]
And again I point you to the example of Christ, who honoured God precisely [i]by [/i]allowing His rights to be violated [i]for the good of those who murdered Him[/i].

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='02 April 2010 - 09:52 AM' timestamp='1270212752' post='2085487']
And again I point you to the example of Christ, who honoured God precisely [i]by [/i]allowing His rights to be violated [i]for the good of those who murdered Him[/i].
[/quote]
Like I said I disagree with your conclusion that this is the only answer. Goodnight

[mortify]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='02 April 2010 - 03:16 AM' timestamp='1270192607' post='2085422']
Really? So God would have permitted His Church to be eradicated?[/quote]

The Middle East, North Africa, Asia Minor, etc were all predominantly Christian. How many Christians remain their now? Had brave Christians not fought the Muslim horde in Tours and Vienna, what makes you think you and I would not be Muslims today? Had God not favored the Christian forces which were often outnumbered you and I in all probability would be Muslims, but thank God we're not.

[quote]I seem to recall that my Lord and Saviour honoured God, His Father by permitting His 'rights' to be violated - to death.[/quote]

Christ's death served a purpose, it was our means of redemption. This is why when our Lord predicted His death and St Peter prayed it wouldn't happen, our Lord scolded him, because he was interferring with the will of God and our atonement. It's precisely the same reason why our Lord told St Peter to put the sword down when the Jewish gaurd came to arrest Him. Now, your death in a battlefield would not serve this purpose, all it would serve is to increase the chances of your nation's defeat. Where as Christ's "defeat" was really a victory for us all, your defeat (i.e. death) would only increase the likelihood of your enemy prevailing over you, and this in turn would have dire consequences for the nation you fight for. As was mentioned before, being conquered by Muslims essentially meant a great decline of the true Faith, costing the souls of millions upon millions. So no, you simply allowing yourself to be killed would not be a "God honouring" thing to do.

This is the honorable thing to do:


[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Husarz1.jpg[/img]

[Semper Catholic]

Because little babies don't blow up innocent women and children. Oh and God has been raging war for hundreds of years, last I checked he killed 99.9% of all living things on the planet back in the day.

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='02 April 2010 - 08:07 AM' timestamp='1270220862' post='2085539']
Like I said I disagree with your conclusion that this is the only answer. Goodnight
[/quote] I'd still like to flesh this out further, but in the interests of providing both myself and everyone else the opportunity to restfully worship during the holiest week in Christian calendar, I shan't be replying further to this thread till at least Monday or Tuesday.

He was wounded for our transgressions, bretheren. Your sins are forgiven and we are given the promise that God will not leave Christ in the tomb. Rejoice!

[poetryofimage]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='02 April 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1270192607' post='2085422']
Really? So God would have permitted His Church to be eradicated?
I seem to recall that my Lord and Saviour honoured God, His Father by permitting His 'rights' to be violated - to death.

This is the example Christians should be following.
[/quote]

So did God sin when He ordered the Jews to make war on the pagans? If war is never justified, then God must have been wrong. Only if there are circumstances in which war is just, can one accept God's command.

[poetryofimage]

It is not the Crusades, and the Iraqis are not landing on our shores shouting "convert or die." The modern threat posed by a few Muslims has been exaggerated into justification for the conquest and control over the world. This war was pronounced unjust by Pope JP II. The use of drones and missiles designed to inflict high levels of civilian casualties are also unjust methods, even if the cause were justified.

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='poetryofimage' date='05 April 2010 - 09:00 PM' timestamp='1270526449' post='2087460']
So did God sin when He ordered the Jews to make war on the pagans? If war is never justified, then God must have been wrong. Only if there are circumstances in which war is just, can one accept God's command.
[/quote] I would say, rather, that unless we have a [i]specific command [/i]from God to go to war in His Word, we ought not to. The LORD in times past has had prophets in order to tell His people what His will is - now that the canon of Scripture is closed, we have no more direct revelations from God and consequently no more explicit divine sanction for war.

[quote name='poetryofimage']It is not the Crusades, and the Iraqis are not landing on our shores shouting "convert or die." The modern threat posed by a few Muslims has been exaggerated into justification for the conquest and control over the world. This war was pronounced unjust by Pope JP II. The use of drones and missiles designed to inflict high levels of civilian casualties are also unjust methods, even if the cause were justified.[/quote] And whether the cause is 'justified' even under just war theory is dubious at best.

I wasn't aware John Paul II condemned the war in Iraq. It sounds like he had his head screwed on straight. God rest his soul.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Presbylicious

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='30 March 2010 - 04:17 AM' timestamp='1269947866' post='2083178']
What the title says. I'm really mystified about this.

Do Roman Catholics tend to be pro-war? What about pro-Iraq-and-Afghanistan-war?

If so, how do you justify such a blatant contradiction in your pro-life convictions? To me, my peace convictions (I am a pacifist - I attend a Presbyterian church but many of my convictions about the Christian's involvement in war and to what extent the Christian should use force are more Mennonite/Anabaptist in nature) are absolutely part and parcel of my pro-life convictions. I would rather die than knowingly carry out an abortion or allow one to be carried out if I could prevent it. I would rather die than to take a gun and shoot someone - in war or not.

It seems like, for a lot of Christians, dedication to defending life stops once a person is born. There is no protest of the horrors of a terrible, criminal war - there is complicity and co-operation with it. There is no protest of situations which degrade the lives of human beings already living (the sex trade, child soldiers, etc).

Sorry for this rant. I'm not terribly familiar with Catholicism, so maybe the Catholic Church already works hard to speak out against unjust war (I realize you are not, institutionally, a 'peace church', but adherents of just war theory) and social injustice. It just seems silly that so many Christians neglect a truly [i]consistent [/i]pro-life ethic. "Pro-life" means "anti-abortion" in people's minds. I am always quick to correct people and say "No, pro-life means PRO-LIFE. Opposition to ALL conditions which would destroy the life and dignity of a human person, from conception to natural death."

What say you?
[/quote]

First of all the Principle of Double Effect applies even to the waging of a just war. A just war is fought for self defense or for protecting those who cannot defend themselves. This agrees with the pro-life view of the Catholic Church as, it enforces the idea that as little blood as possible should be spilled. War sometimes has good effects that are greater than its bad effects: the Allied victory of WWII stopped the Holocaust. However, abortion never has a good effect greater than the bad effect.

God guided the Israelites into war multiple times throughout the Old Testament. In the New Testament (Luke 22:36-37) Jesus tells his Apostles to buy swords, "He [Jesus] said to them 'But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.'"

Sorry about the choppiness of my explanation, I'm a little under the weather right now.