Church Hierarchy

[NewReformation]

Most protestants are not against church hierarchy...per se. There is a certain degree to which I dare say all denominations have a hierarchy. With some churches, this may extend to only the Church pastors. With others, this could extend all the way to denominational leaders. Most Protestant denominations leave matters of Church Practice up to each individual church. Most denominational "conferences" do require each church to hold to the denominations statement of faith. There are also certain practices which may be forbidden(ie, ordaining women, gay marriages, etc). Within the Baptist denomination for example, there are various conferences(SBC, ABC, GARBC). Each confernce has a fairly similiar statement of faith, but in matters of practice they may differ slightly.

Most often, it is left up to individual churches to decide what they will and won't practice in their churches(ie, hymns vs p&w music; Bible versions; matters of Church Discipline, etc).

[dUSt]

If I were an athiest who started to believe that God existed, this would totally turn me away from Christianity.

Although it may seem harsh, I believe that the effects of the Reformation have lead to an increase in athiesm and an overall rejection of God.

[Brother Adam]

effects= utter confusion?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 12 2004, 03:28 PM'] effects= utter confusion? [/quote]
I suppose.

I just think that an athiest who looks at Christianity (especially in America) sees a jumbled mess. The Church before the Reformation had many flaws--this is true, but at least it was unified under one name. The Reformation did spur the Counter-Reformation, which addressed many of the Church's problems from within. It's just too bad that the reformers couldn't have lead a reformation WITHIN the Church, instead of breaking off from the Church--we would be so more appealing to non-believers.

This is why, as a Catholic, I feel that it's better at times to emphasise how [b]different[/b] the Catholic Church is from Protestantism. I wasn't always like this. In fact, when I first started learning more about my faith, I was intent on showing Protestants just how much [b]similar[/b] we are. I soon realized that what I was doing was simply trying to explain Catholicism as just another Christian denomination--different, but equal... What can I say... I evolved.

[Sojourner]

[quote]I just think that an athiest who looks at Christianity (especially in America) sees a jumbled mess.[/quote]

I have a good friend who is an atheist, and from talking to him this is exactly true. His parents (who became Christians after my friend was an adult) attend an independent Baptistic church. Their pastor had told the congregation they were all supposed to do something, and my friend tells me about it, saying, "What authority does he have to do this? It's not in the Bible, he's got no backup."

Other things he's said intimate that he questions how it is that we could believe in an eternal, unchangeable God who reveals himself in so many stridently different theologies.

I think the unity of the Church is one of her most attractive features, even if there is questioning and wrestling within the walls. To be able struggle to understand God together without worrying that one party is going to walk off in a huff and form his/her own faction -- 'tis a beautiful thing.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 12 2004, 08:30 PM']
I have a good friend who is an atheist, and from talking to him this is exactly true. His parents (who became Christians after my friend was an adult) attend an independent Baptistic church. Their pastor had told the congregation they were all supposed to do something, and my friend tells me about it, saying, "What authority does he have to do this? It's not in the Bible, he's got no backup."

Other things he's said intimate that he questions how it is that we could believe in an eternal, unchangeable God who reveals himself in so many stridently different theologies.

I think the unity of the Church is one of her most attractive features, even if there is questioning and wrestling within the walls. To be able struggle to understand God together without worrying that one party is going to walk off in a huff and form his/her own faction -- 'tis a beautiful thing. [/quote]
Yes it is...

I wonder how people can ignore the constant call to unity by the Apostles? The very fact that the Apostles wrote to various Churches speaking of Unity, One Faith, etc... shows that there was real unity... and a real one faith.

Looking at the bible as a critical writing, because it is the most critical writing on earth, the only conclusion, is the Catholic Church.

There are a few facts about the Church established by Christ that no other Church can answer...

What does the Bible say the Pillar and Truth is??? - The Church...

1 Tim 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What does the Church that Christ built look like???? .....

It has Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They are often called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It is hierarchical.

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 - Jesus uses "ecclesia" only twice in the NT. This proves Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. God gives His children authority.

Eph. 4:11 - Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church.

Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ's Church has bishops (episcopoi) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ's Church also has elders or priests (presbuteroi) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ's Church also has deacons (diakonoi). His Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It has the Body and Blood of Christ - The Real Presence

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." .....
......

63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."
66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Church (Clergy - disciples) can forgive sins....

St John 20:21
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

St James 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,
15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.
St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Matt. 18:18
"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It will never be overcome by the Netherworld, it will be like a city on a mountain for all time, it will be Guided by Christ; it will even speak for Christ - It will have ONE Faith....

St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock(Kephas) I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."
John 21:15
8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

St. Matt 28:18
11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."
Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

Matt 5:13
11 12 "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.
15 Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.



Ephesians 4:1
1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,
3 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:
4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Only One Church, One Faith... has been around almost 2000 years and can fit what the Church in the Bible "looks" like... it can be seen today...

The Catholic Church.... built by Christ, on Peter and the Apostles.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[grapeape]

wow...well said

[God Conquers]

It's a FACT that the reformation lead to atheism.

How many atheistic sources can be found before th 15th century? Almost none.

The reformation represented the triumph of personal interst over public good, of greed over sanctity of private property, of relativism over absolute values and morality.

It has directly lead to the atheistic culture we now have before us.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 13 2004, 08:59 AM'] It's a FACT that the reformation lead to atheism.

How many atheistic sources can be found before th 15th century? Almost none.

The reformation represented the triumph of personal interst over public good, of greed over sanctity of private property, of relativism over absolute values and morality.

It has directly lead to the atheistic culture we now have before us. [/quote]
What source do you have for this?

[NewReformation]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 12 2004, 07:41 PM'] Yes it is...

I wonder how people can ignore the constant call to unity by the Apostles? The very fact that the Apostles wrote to various Churches speaking of Unity, One Faith, etc... shows that there was real unity... and a real one faith.


What does the Bible say the Pillar and Truth is??? - The Church...

1 Tim 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.



[/quote]
As to the first part of this quote: The Apostles wrote advocating unity within each individual church. They weren't referring to 'global' unity.

Secondly, I still fail to see where Scripture says that the Church is truth. The Church(universal, all believers) is the FOUNDATION and PILLAR of Truth, but is NOT truth.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='NewReformation' date='Apr 13 2004, 12:00 PM'] What source do you have for this? [/quote]
protestantism leads to atheism because it does not add up.

protestantism says no one is infallible... therefore when Christ said that the Church would be guided by the Spirit of Truth; that the Church would speak for Him, either there is no God or protestantism is wrong.

protestantism is a contradiction... that is why there are roughly 34,000 + protestant churches and growing... protestantism is not One Faith... therefore it cannot be the faith of the bible.

The source is itself. Study it. Study history before the 15th century.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='NewReformation' date='Apr 13 2004, 12:03 PM'] As to the first part of this quote: The Apostles wrote advocating unity within each individual church. They weren't referring to 'global' unity.

Secondly, I still fail to see where Scripture says that the Church is truth. The Church(universal, all believers) is the FOUNDATION and PILLAR of Truth, but is NOT truth. [/quote]
Your interpretation is wrong. History and the bible prove it. The body of believers is not the pillar and foundation of truth... I cannot understand how anyone draws such conclusions in light of Scripture - Truth CANNOT contradict Truth... protestantism is contradiction.

[b]Acts 20:30 [/b]
And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.


How are we supposed to know what Truth is if there is not a Church that will not be overcome?

[b]John 14:16[/b]
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you [b]another Advocate to be with you always[/b],
[b]17 [/b][b]the Spirit of truth[/b], which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
[b]18 [/b]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


There is One Group... One Faith... to say otherwise is to lie to yourself.


[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, [color=blue]you should know how to behave in the household of God[/color], [color=green]which is the church of the living God[/color], [color=red]the pillar and foundation of truth[/color].

What is the household of God? Answer: "The Church of the Living God" which is "The Pillar and Foundation of Truth".

NO ONE said the Church was truth. Ask yourself "What is a pillar and foundation?" - It is what supports a building.

The Church IS the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.... It supports the Truth. There can be only one Truth because the bible says so. One Faith - NOT 2, 3, or 34,000 of them.


St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."


John 1:42
Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; 30 you will be called Kephas" (which is translated Peter).

The argument that Jesus was not calling Peter the Rock is wrong.


John 21:15
8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."



St. Matt 28:18
11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."


Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"


Matt 5:13
11 12 "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14
You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.
15
Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.



Eph 4:5 one Lord, [b]one faith[/b], one baptism;







God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited April 13, 2004 by ironmonk

[mulls]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 13 2004, 09:59 AM'] It's a FACT that the reformation lead to atheism.

How many atheistic sources can be found before th 15th century? Almost none.

The reformation represented the triumph of personal interst over public good, of greed over sanctity of private property, of relativism over absolute values and morality.

It has directly lead to the atheistic culture we now have before us. [/quote]
it's also the fact that if one was not part of the Church than their lives would be ruined. the Church dominated every aspect of the social structure.


people had no choice but to "believe," if that's what you want to call it.

[Theologian in Training]

The Reformation, in large part, adopted a very individualistic mentality which, in turn, opened many other doors along with it. Although the Reformation did cause a lot of confusion and division, it did point out an abuse that needed to be addressed. Granted, it probably should not have led to such an extreme, but Luther was a very extreme person.

Just my .02

God Bless Alelluia!

[ironmonk]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 13 2004, 12:36 PM'] it's also the fact that if one was not part of the Church than their lives would be ruined. the Church dominated every aspect of the social structure.


people had no choice but to "believe," if that's what you want to call it. [/quote]
I'm sorry, but you are mistaken.

Civil authorities dominated.

That's why when Europe began to reject Christ's Church that the people had to be protestant or face death.

It was not the Church. It was bad people within the Church. There is a difference.


God Bless,
ironmonk